Tomb of Jesus and Family

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

The recent documentary which focused on the discovery of the tomb of Jesus and his family, presents conclusive evidence that Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary and Joseph, did indeed exist and that the gospels truthfully represent the names of his family and desciples.

Since most atheists believe that Jesus was probably not even an historical person, I find it somewhat astonishing how leading Christian theologists are rushing forward to refute, out-of-hand, the evidence so clearly presented in the documentary, without recognising the value it presents in validating the historical truths on which our Western culture is based.

One can understand the fact that the phsyical evidence dismisses the claim that Jesus took his earthly body back to heaven with him - but millions of devoted Christians have already accepted that the claims to Jesus’ divinity are fictional, without loosing sight of the essential social and spiritual messages he gave to us.

The DNA evidence shows that Mary Magadalene was buried in the family tomb, as well as the ossuary of a child, on which is enscribed the legend: Judah, son of Jesus. This strongely suggests that Jesus and Mary were married. I guess this too deeply offends the purists who refuse to accept anything less than the Gospel truth.

Hopefully, as time goes by, the extreme value of this phsyical evidence that has miraculously surfaced after two millennia, is seen for what it is and brings with it a renewed faith in the essential goodness of opur culture.

2

Did you know that the people who are claiming this tomb is what you say it is, are also claiming that the James ossuary came from it as well, and are thus staking their credibility on this known hoax?

Does it bother you that a tomb ‘proving’ that Jesus was married to Mary Magdelen has been ‘discovered’ just as the world is in a tizzy over the Da Vinci Code?

It’s not just some Christian fundies that are denying the claims of the documentary, the archaeologist who discovered the site refutes them too.

I take it you aren’t an archaeologists- as along as we’re talking about sensibilities, why do you want to believe it?

In defense of atheists, though, I don’t think most of them deny Jesus was a historical person. That’s a far-out position, much like young earth creationism.

3

I have been a professional documentary film maker for over twenty five years. I can spot a weakly researched, biased, report as well as anyone. This one is top drawer. It seems to me from all the rest of your commentary that you have not seen the televison special.

The film makers agree that the additon to the original inscription on the ossuary of James - “Brother of Jesus” may well be a hoax. But the original name is authentic, as is the fact that James was Jesus’ brother. In additon samples taken of the patina on the James’ ossuary are identical to the other nine originally found in the family tomb. James, ossuary was stolen and sold on the black market after the tomb was first opened in 1980. Ten were recorded at that time.

I am too old to get into a tizzy over anything. I am savvy enough to know the difference between fact and fiction. Nobody in the film said that Mary Magadelena’s ossuary, found in the Jesus family tomb “proves” they were married. But it seems highly probable that she was wed to him and not one of his brothers There is plenty of evidence to show that she became Jesus’s principle apostle after he was crucified. As mother to Jesus’ son, her authority among the faithful would have been high. Witness her brother Phillip’s papers.

No archeologist is denying the authenticity of the ten ossuaries or the names inscribed on them. Israeli archaeologists are refuting the statistical facts. Its one thing to claim a that all the names found in the same tomb were common Jewish names of that periiod. It is quite another thing to ignore the fact that all the names found match all the names mentioned in the New Testament. The odds are as astranomical as the lottery.

I was an avowed atheist at one period of my life and I dont need any defense. You are entitled to your opinion as to the various elements that contrubute towards the making of a unbeliever of one’s own cultural traditions, as am I. I am simply grateful that our ancestors are now proved not to be liars.

4

Why the rush to judgment? These things usually take a while to shake out. The James Ossuary sold books and made money for a couple years before it was proven to be a fake. James Cameron knows a box office blockbuster when he sees one. Why else would he jump on the band-wagon? The DaVinci Code has them salivating for fame and fortune. By the way have you seen the BBC documentary debunking the DaVinci Code? It’s quite convincing. On the other hand I’m betting my money that James Cameron tomb is the one he resurrected from. Then he went to Kashmir, lived to be 80 and is buried there. When he visited France is a mystery yet to be revealed. :wink:

5

No, I haven’t seen the television special, and I don’t have to. I’m sure James Cameron did a bang up job. Again, the facts are what they are- the archaeologists responsible for the dig dispute the findings of the documentary, not just the statistics, from what I understand the inscriptions are in debate as well. And again, the time of the film’s release is quite telling. This is clearly an attempt to cash in on bad archaeology, to fit with pop culture.
As far as the James ossuary is concerned, Jacobovici claimed the ossuary was really the ossuary of James before the hoax was revealed, and still claims that now- he’s among those that dispute the hoax declaration at all.
Why would the film have to definitively state that ‘Mary’ was married to ‘Jesus’? It’s better off if they don’t, you say that the film doesn’t state that, but then you state that the evidence seems clear, it’s obvious they made their point. I don’t know what the film claims, but the forger and people concerned with the James ossuary are still finding it important enough to insist on the inscriptions legitimacy, or that any hoaxing was involved. It only seems highly likely that the ‘Mary’ in the tomb was married to the ‘Jesus’ in the tomb on the assumption that the tomb is of the famous Jesus, and as such that implied marriage can’t be taken as evidence for the conclusion- whomever this Mary is, she could have been married to anybody in that tomb. Also, the claims that Jesus survived the crucifixion in the first place and went on to marry are so ill-founded that for the tomb to be interpreted in that light actually make it all the less credible- that this Jesus was married and had a son (not to mention four other familiy members who’s crypt names were unreadable, am I right?) is all evidence that this tomb has nothing to do with the Christian Jesus, as that Jesus died single and childless. Add to that that there’s a Matthew in the tomb that has no recorded relation to Jesus’ family.

I don’t want to plagarize the news, but there’s a lot of good points made here:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 00442.html

…and all over the internet.

extremetheology.com/

You’ll see there reference to a Toronto Star report, saying that the James Ossuary was photographed ten years before the ‘JEsus tomb’ was unearthed. Also, Mary Magdelen is never called ‘Mariamne’ in anything written before the fourth century, so that’s two people, Mariamne and Matthew with no connection to the Gospel’s Jesus or His family, and the only DNA ‘link’ found in there was that Jesus wasn’t related to Mariamne. She could have been married to Judah.

The bottom line is, this tomb is old, old news, and nobody who actually studied it thought much of it at all, just a common tomb filled with common names. Because of what’s hot in pop culture, all of the sudden it’s the find of the century- and as far as I can tell, almost everybody that isn’t making money or fame directly off the find is calling it hogwash.

I’m not whipping out off the cuff opinions here, the position that Jesus didn’t exist is a marginal atheist view, and almost no historian takes it seriously, and a tomb wasn’t necessary to make that the case. As far as our ancestors now proven not to be liars, we already had the New Testament.

6

Pity. It was meticulously researched by a highly acclaimed international crew, at great expense over a lengthy period. Without seeing it yourself you are merely regurgitating somebody elses critical view, (who possibly felt that they too did not need to see it to know it was a hoax.)

There are over a thousand stone ossuaries stored in the warehouse of the Israeli Antiquities Department. Almost all have the names of the occupants inscribed on them … for simple family identification, just as any other gravestone. Of the thousands of family vaults exhumed, none of the names inside connect with the gospels like the tomb now in focus. It is that statistical fact that makes the find so remarkable. The original acheaologists, who saw the common names, failed to make the statistcal connection with the New Testament, and that is what the film makers are focusing on.
Nobody is claining anything definative. But the circumstancial evidence is highly compelling. The documentary is definately worth serious consideration and I suggest you do that before you continue with your unfair denoument.

7

What did it say about the other place Jesus was buried? The one with a Chuch atop it?

8

Good question. It’s called the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and has been held as the spot of the ressurection (and crucifixtion, incidentally) since 325 when it was built.

9

03.07.07.1990

I think a lot of people are over-looking an important fact about this whole “Jesus Tomb” thing. The docu-film is based on a book put together by Simcha Jacobovici, who I personally find a very poor investigator and a very deserving of great distaste. I saw The Exodus Decoded on the History channel once where he tried to prove the existence of the Ark of the Covenant (and more)… it was real lousy; and that too was made by Cameron as well. Next year they’ll issue the special edition where they find the remains of a dog with a collar that says “My name is Paul. Please return me to Jesus of Nazareth.”

It just goes to show how easy it is to make money… selling unverifiable bullshit based on mere speculation is one of the hottest trends today. What will Jacobovici and Cameron come up with next? The “evidence” that shows that Jesus went to India to learn from the yogis and Buddhists during the “missing” 18 years of his life? What a joke.

10

Smear tactics against individuals cannot detract from the facts.
The tomb of the Jesus family was exhumed and emptied in 1980 by the Israeli authorites. Ten ossuaries were found inside, each with its occupant’s name inscribed on it. All except for one ossuary (missing in transit) was catalogued and stored on shelves nside the warehouse of the Antiquities Department. There is no way that anybody could have tampered with those bone boxes. The statistics of finding six names inside one family tomb, matching with six names in the New Testament remain millions to one.
In addition, the patina on the missing ossuary of James, matches the others exactly.
Those are the salient facts. Unless some substantiated evidence is produced that shows how a hoax has been perpetrated, the circumstantial evidence so far is slam-dunk.

This being so, these new revelations may well remove the primitive claim that Jesus is the one and only son of God, once and for all - and in that process bring the whole world to a concensus that unconditional love for one’s neibors has been the most insightful social and spiritual message ever delivered and died for by a fellow human.

11

Sounds like someone has their mind made up already.

As I remember it was the patina on the James ossuary that led Israeli authorities to call it a fake.

From Wikipedia
“However, on June 18, 2003, the Israeli Antiquities Authority published a report concluding that the inscription is a modern forgery based on their analysis of the patina. Specifically, it appears that the inscription was added recently and made to look old by addition of a chalk solution.”

If these other ossuaries match it “exactly” what does that say about their credibility?

12

Sagesound, cut it out. You agreeing with me about stuff messes up my whole groove.

13

oops

14

Hmmm.

Before the documentary even came out many top archeologist were disparaging Jams Cameron and crew for sloppy work and jumping to conclusions without supporting evidence, IOW, bad science. They claim that the inscriptions on the tombs were illegible at best and might or might not say what he claimed. Now have you actually seen the inscriptions, or do you just believe every thing you hear?

15

It is clearly evident that each of you are sucking at empty straws. It’s like criticising a book that you have never even bothered to read. You are all making unsubstantiated claims that you picked up in some article or another. Go see the documentary and then give your opinions. A picture reveals more than a thousand words. [-X

16

03.08.07.1993

:laughing: It certainly is an interesting shift in position, isn’t it? Even Ned is on the same side… it’s a classic demonstration of “the enemies of my enemies are my enemies”; but then, it doesn’t even work like that. I already know the Jesus Tomb stuff is a crock, so I didn’t need to base my judgement on yours or Ned’s or any other religious person. This is just one of those odd circumstances where the scientists and the religious have sat down at a table and agreed, “this is hogwash on both sides”.

Smear tactics? Hello? Did you go to the link I posted? Those aren’t smear tactics… those are facts. That Jaco-guy is a real trip up some wacky chemistry between poor science and lousy religion. He’s just not worth anyone’s time. People who listen to him are just as likely to believe aliens or some other just-as-unlikely force are the cause of all the disappearances in the Bermuda Triangle.
Aside from that, do you have any evidence to support the ridiculous claim that there was a “Jesus family” discovered and that the whole tomb site was treated like Roswell? What were you thinking? “Oh yeah, the Jews took the bodies and hid them away because if Christians found out about it, they’d be real pissed and say we put the bodies there and then start persecuting us again because they’re all crazy about Jesus going up to heaven.” It’s just too outlandish…

17

I just wish the inevitable retractions would be as popular as the stunning revelations, but they never are.

18

03.09.07.1994

I gave you a chance. I watched it, and the first problem I found was the ridiculous absurdity that these people were jumping to conclusions based on a mere names. That Jaco-guy was especially eager to jump to conclusions…

What I want to see is another ossuary found that says “Jesus son of Joseph”… since there can’t be two of the same person, their argument will mean nothing.

DNA does not prove marriage. No radiocarbon dating was made. No DNA testing was done to compare Jesus with Jose, James, or Judah… even that Jaco-guy said “Were not scientists. At the end of the day we cant wait till every ossuary is tested for DNA. We took the story that far. At some point you have to say, I’ve done my job as a journalist.” If that’s the case, he’s a pretty lousy journalist…

The only two things about this movie that I found somewhat odd was the fact that a local Rabbinical school filled the tomb with damaged holy text before the re-sealing. That, and the fact that the IAA sent some woman down to tell them to close up the tomb because they didn’t have permission to open it. That’s weird concerning the IAA never sealed the tomb in the first place… they left it open back in 1980… why give a damn now after it was the apartment tenants that sealed it? There is obviously a logical explanation… but since we, the viewers, aren’t given all the facts, we’re led by Jaco-guy to think that there’s some conspiracy going on. That’s pretty sad.

It just goes to show that people who believe stuff like this don’t know all the facts.

19

So peer reviews by top archeologist are somehow irrelevant?

Since it’s a documentary and on TV its automatically correct?

You have a strangely loose criteria for evidence, possible a bit naive too, I guess that answers my question about if you believe everything you hear or see.

20

It never occuured to me that I needed chances. It would have been more helpful if you had declared yourself right away. The Jaco-guy was at pains to say that the statistics are highly significant. He never made a definative claim.

I do not follow your reasoning here.

I would say an honest reporter. Budget constraints made it impossible for them to pay for exhaustive forensic testing, and he said so. All they are saying is that the evidence collected so far warrents further serious investigation. Considering the emmence signficance of this subject and what I might do to the future of our religious culture, I find it troubling why so many of you on this forum and elsewhere find that request so unreasonable?

In my opinion there is a conspiracy going on. All the main objections are coming from the Israeli archaeological community. If this was the possible tomb of Abraham or Solomon you can bet they would have taken a far more careful approach. (Before anybody accuses me of anti-Semitism, my maternal grandfather was Lithuanian Jew.)

Quite so - in the reverse. #-o