I’m wondering, is there truth? now I’d accept that this wall here is true, I can’t walk through it (unfortunately) so the physical world is true, but what are our truths, what is true for us, our minds, our souls? If I desire something it could be said that at the heart of this desire is the true thing I want but it comes expressed as this desire e.g. I want to buy an xbox 360 but the truth of it could be that I want the social interaction that I associate with my memories of gaming. So despite this console being at the pinnacle of technology the truth of the product is still a ‘primitive’ need (something which the advertisers do well to exploit). But where does this stop, could all our actions and language merely be masks for ‘primitive’ needs…which maybe comes down to power, sex, survival, the gut… but primates aside, what are these concepts which philosophers, politicians etc. argue over, at heart could there be a pure form of truth which has become abstracted through our intelligence and we spend our time arguing for the same concepts but in abstracted and crude forms?
The only pure form of Truth is objective Truth–the wall you spoke of. Subjective Truth is individual Truth. The problems come when we confuse the two, or mix them up intentionally for personal gain.
can there not be objective truths for us too. Are there objective truths for animals? would food, sleep, shelter and sex be objective truths for animals? and these are the things we directly/indirectly pursue although they appear in abstracted forms…but if we are to consider ourselves more than just animals what then is our food? I may want a steak, but should i ignore this want and have a vegetarian dish instead? the soul also craves food but how do we know what to feed it? are there equivalents to those animals truths for our souls?
I’m agreeing with you. Objective Truth is universal and the same for everyone. Truth for our souls can be derived from the pursuit of knowledge or objective Truth, but also from partially to completely subjective (individualistic) Truth such as justice, love and beauty.
is there a possibility that there is no such thing as a subjective truth? that the subjective truths which we think we have are still only abstracted forms of a purer truth. Consider light, we could have 5 people who each have a favourite colour of light they have their favourite colour because they are drawn to a particular quality within that light, now this quality could be white the pure form of light, the truth, but through the spectrum of our intellect we are drawn to either the reds blues or yellows…could this work for our individual tastes, could there be a single source from which concepts such as justice, love and beauty abstract from?..or is what i’m saying here simple a repeat of what i was saying in the previous posts
Consider throughout history how we have, in art, depicted man, from stick-man to da vinci they are all the same thing…just abstracted…is there a true form of man…
…this is jibberish
…actually i’m just needlessly confusing this, so the question is, is objective truth attainable?
Truth is a property of statements. You can say that the statement “There is a wall here” is true, but the wall is just a physical object - it is not “true”, it just exists.
We often desire the truth, and this is perhaps what you mean vis-a-vis the comparison to animals and their desire for food.
Of course. Any logically deductive argument can lead you to objective truth given that the premises are true, and if you’re an empiricist then the truth of your premises is guaranteed by your observations and measurements of the world.
I think that within my posts here I’ve inadvertently changed the direction of my thoughts, my original thought was one of essence, is the essence of man his soul? now I’d say the soul is a truth, a pure form but I’m not sure if this is the same as an objective truth. A healthy soul requires nourishment i.e. good company, philosophy & art, could the motivation of our actions and the truth behind our language be the desires of the soul?
In my view, I’d say the soul is partly composed of the truths in believes in, and since there’s no blockade preventing us from grasping objective truth, I’d say objective truth can make up a part of our soul.
You mean, why do we do and say the things we do - because it is a means through which our soul satisfies its desires? Well, of course. But this brings to light the contrast between believing because it’s true and believe because the soul desires for it to be true. I suppose, then, you’re asking whether we can seek Truth for Truth’s sake rather than as a means to a another end such as the “spiritual nourishment” you alluded to. Is this right?
I didn’t realize it was so obvious. But, are the things which we desire today which we express in our thought, our language and our actions are they really what we want? or are we in a sense ‘pre-programmed’ by our culture to desire certain things and follow certain paths, has our cultural background abstracted our desires?
the soul desires the truth, the gut desires the abstractions. it may be the gut which convinces us that abstractions of the truth are true. The gut is the agent of our ‘crude’ desires.
seeking the truth is for the ‘spiritual nourishment’ rather than ‘the gut’s nourishment’, so with this I am saying the sake of truth is the nourishment of the soul. I think that answers your question
I’d say we certainly are. The only reason I want the nice house and the fast car and all that is because I am taught by my culture that those things make you cool, upper class, sophisticated, etc. A lot of what we consume is for the sake of image.
So what is the ‘gut’ in your view, and why would it crave abstractions?
Fair enough. Do you think we’re being lead astray or distracted by the desires of the gut?
the gut is what you stated first it is what desires the nice house and fast car, it seeks satisfaction in these things, these are the abstractions. why would it crave abstractions? the gut is the primitive, the irrational, the reason why an suv appeals to certain men is because it is a symbol of power and strength.
Yes! I think we’re not only distracted by the gut but exploited through the gut also.
](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/uploads/default/original/2X/7/7c349bf1053f368a5729d053e1e91215f22ce66c.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
I didn’t realize it was so obvious. But, are the things which we desire today which we express in our thought, our language and our actions are they really what we want? or are we in a sense ‘pre-programmed’ by our culture to desire certain things and follow certain paths, has our cultural background abstracted our desires?
and such an appropriate image.