And he wonders why I don’t – why I won’t – engage in actual exchanges with him!
And, really, they are everywhere now at ILP, aren’t they? 
Now I am beginning to get Your outlook about conflicting goods, vs the objective/subjective supposed split.
The statement that things will get back to what they were, I am not too overly optimistic about, because
Remember the observation that Trump tailor made the so called Republican Party in pretty much his own image, rather than the other way. He is the odd man out.
So any sense of return is problematic, because the status quo will be changed retro-actively. Who among them will remember the ‘way we were’?
So, progressive decay may set in, and the original intent of the Flunding Fathers will become akin to the ever widening gap between the de-jury and de-facto in legal procedure. Procedure will sharply divert from the black letter, and more interpretation will dictate.
This is, the subjective slant and it’s ascension in political life as well.
Everyone has judged. You’re mentally ill and we all think you’re full of shit.
Who wants to be made a fool of? You apparently. You make a fool of yourself every time you paste your little bit that you do.
Johnson and Stein weren’t spoilers in any state in enough states to change the outcome. Stein didn’t get enough votes to spoil, and best anyone can tell, Johnson drew from both candidates.
What would happen if the Electoral College decided not to elect Trump? Larry Lessig has a short piece making the case. It looks like a funny double-bind for Trump. On the one hand, Trump only won because the Electoral College undermines the popular will. But the Electoral College also has the freedom to vote how it chooses, that’s the way the system is set up. The defense of the system would undermine his attack on the Electoral College, and criticism of the system would undermine the validity of his election.
I don’t actually think this is a good idea. It would undermine the institutions, possibly fatally, and Trump voters would not accept it easily. But it’s an interesting hypothetical, and would be perfectly constitutional.
Aside from this, the argument has been made in more then one election, and in a sense the occasional false outcome has become institutionalized and accepted.
-
Nobody from the supreme court would swear Hillary in, remember how angry the Supreme Court was when Bush and Gore demanded they solve the Florida Vote? This would be a clear case of voter disenfranchisement, and it would more or less lead to not merely the extinguishment of Hillary and Kaine under the Jeffersonian method, but would make the Supreme Court a target as well. Nobody wants that. They don’t want it either, and I doubt most judges below them want it either. She would have to be sworn in by some county judge in San Francisco.
-
Death is 110% assured for Hillary and Kaine for stealing the election, doubt they would survive between the announcement in the house, and being sworn in.
-
She would be refused burial, and her corpse would be given a “spiritual office” and repeatedly impeached from it, and her cadaver would be mummified from all the salt in the urine and piss everyone would dump on her regularly. She would be on permanent display, with a sign saying “Death to Tyrants”.
-
Military would react sluggishly to Obama trying to defend her. It wouldn’t react at all if she somehow made it into office, they would be in a panic looking for President Trump.
-
I get your apartment awarded to me for services rendered to the US Congress on Kill The Tyrant Day, and Joker will be my neighbor, and Uccisore would be Washington, DC mayor.
Unlike Liberals, we actually know how to use military force, and if Democrats turned to insane as to steal the highest office, collapsing several hundred years of elected tradition- essentially all bets are off, and a lot of mother fuckers are gonna die in the bloody internegrum in one massive purge, till Democracy is deemed ready to return. You have no idea how pissed the US would be. We wouldn’t stop hunting the liberals down until we were certain enough died so as to insure democracy could last another two centuries.
Have absolutely no doubt, it wouldn’t be accepted, at all. Everyone on the right are armed for a reason.
You want Hillary in office peacefully, get her actually elected. It is the only way it will ever happen without a Second American Revolution.
Don’t forget how pissed off we can get. We would be marching unopposed through the ranks of disheartened military into DC and would raze the fucking place down. Very few would stand by her side. Secret Service might just pop her themselves if they saw a pissed off, armed mob of Americans swarm the streets of DC out for blood.
Really? I haven’t checked the latest vote tallies, but I remember at the end thinking they were making the difference in Michigan and Penn. That’s cool then, I’m glad third party voters don’t have to be the DNC’s whipping boys for four years.
They’d get fined, people would be mad, you’d get Hillary Clinton for four years in exchange for the DNC’s reputation as shysters that rig the system being cemented for ever. You’d send a second message that the election doesn’t matter as much as the cat fight after the election, voter turnout would plummet,
All we can say about the general popular will based on this election is that it is close to evenly split. We really have no idea how a straight popular vote would go. We don’t know how many more people would turn out in Texas, Cali, and New York if they didn’t have 'The state is going this way whether you vote or not" to contend with. We don’t know how many people wouldn’t have voted third party in ‘safe’ states, we don’t know how the candidates would have changed their campaign stops or strategies.
Yeah, your too close to the Canadian border to grasp how pissed we are down here. I’m absolutely certain there would be a mass mobilization if she survived past the first days of this stunt, and equally certain the military wouldn’t back her.
100%. Absolutely no chance of survival on her part, zero, zilche.
Your not grasping the extreme unwillingness of Americans to continue on with a constitutional system that only applies to everyone but the elites. Presidency has no meaning if it is obviously stolen, not hypothetically, blantantly. Nobody here would accept that, and my whole state is in easy striking distance. We wouldn’t hesitate, we be out for vengeance. Rage would be our consolation after clearing room after room, tunnel after tunnel, trying to figure out where they squirreled her. She wouldn’t be allowed to escape.
Seriously, what happens in third world countries where this sort if thing happens Carleas? Always war, and it comes down to who the military backs. Military absolutely will not back her. She would be the enemy, foreign or domestic, they swore a oath to defend against. They won’t raise a finger to go after partisans. They will block off the advance of any crazy commander dumb enough to listen to hillary, lethal fire if necessary. You’ll see mass defections in those few units dumb enough to launch a coup for Hillary back to Trump and the Republic.
Second Amendment is part of the constitution too. We have it literally for cases like this.
I think this is right. There was a relatively good chance a president Clinton would have been assassinated had she won through normal channels.
They will be anyway. Having voted third party, I’m attuned to how often they’re being blamed. See, for example, this piece of shit, which makes the argument by looking at the case where half of Johnson voters and all Stein voters go to Clinton and the other half of Johnson voters stay home, which is just not realistic, and therefore not an interesting hypothetical.
Stein alone could have handed over Michigan and Wisconsin, but not Pennsylvania or Florida. Trump won by 36 electoral votes, and MI+WI is only 26. Though I am sad to say it, it just doesn’t look like the election was the result of first-past-the-post voting: the electorate really preferred Trump to Clinton.
I agree with your assessment of what would happen if the electors were faithless. Another interesting possibility would be if they were faithless and picked someone else, like Romney or McMullin.
All true. We can say that more people voted for Clinton than voted for Trump. But for all that polling got wrong in this election, it’s still worth noting that an election is not a great way to assess the will of the people. About half the country voted, and the election several states was decided by less than the margin of error. The result doesn’t seem statistically significant. Something I keep coming back to with all the post-mortems is how much they’re grasping for explanations for something they wouldn’t even be talking about if it had come out differently, and but for a few hundred thousand people across the country getting stuck in traffic it might have.
Tangentially related: Good set of maps from the Washington Post:
It’s all moot. Hillary has this huge list of qualifications, and Trump is a game show host. Any analysis looking at few hundred thousand votes misses the point that it shouldn’t have been close. Hillary had every advantage, it was clearly her race to lose. The tiny percentage of Johnson voters or whatever have nothing to do with anything. Even if Hillary won by a narrow margin, the take away should be that her campaign was horrible and she was horrible as a candidate- though of course that reality wouldn’t have been faced in that case. That’s a fairly common statistical error: If you get 10,000 votes, and I get 10,001, the natural instinct is to go looking for the one guy who fucked you over. But there is no one guy, there are 10,001.
I suspect you’re right about that, but I’m not confident the election results show that in any definitive way.
Right, which isn’t very meaningful. You’re talking about a difference of…half of one percent, where neither of them got a majority, and the popular vote isn’t even the factor. Hillary doesn’t have some populist mandate by getting 48% of the vote instead of 47.5%, and Trump doesn’t have some mandate by virtue of his slightly fewer votes being more strategically located. I do think Trump has a mandate, but because of previous elections that have given the GOP complete control over the federal and State governments, not this one outcome. That’s a greater sign of the people’s will to me.
Yes! That’s one of my favorite things about all this. All the soul-searching from the media, the apology letter from the New York Times, the “Holy shit, Hillary was horrible and you were horrible for forcing her upon us” from the DNC voters, all this stuff that was absolutely needed and absolutely would not have happened if the election went the other way.
Hey congratulations all on another day in the world. Made possible by Humanity!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZpMJeynBeg[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtLQHUSqgGo[/youtube]
Also high chance Trump too. I predicted both would be assassinated, and a part of me is passively okay with that, so long as it happens after swearing in, my preferred Vice President to become President won. But I’m under no illusions a bunch of guys like Kropotkin aren’t going nuts over Trump right now.
Main difference is, if Hillary launches a coup by bending the electoral college way over to her, it won’t be a few wacko lone snipers that the secret service might be able to handle. You would see the mass mobilization of every pickup truck and SUV from every red county in a 500 mile radius descend on DC to go after Hillary. You would lose power in the city the first night as the electric grid is dismantled for a hundred miles around if necessary. Rooftops would be occupied by hillbillies, highways would be made inpassible by cars torched, smashed, and stacked. Heavy construction vehicles would be making new avenues of approach, leas by veterans, guts who could call out to the few units and airborne troops sent in to DC by name of their units, saying they are just like them.
US doesn’t take insurrections lightly, and will do whatever we can to restore the Union, Hillary won’t be allowed to destroy us. Last time someone tried a stunt like this, the Civil War happened. Ended up with the rebel president running around across the south to Texas before surrendering to Union Troops, after FOUR YEARS IF WAR. This time around, it wouldn’t even last days, maybe weeks.
Let’s say the secret service, or enough of it, backs her while troops and partisans are searching for her- running through the tunnel systems, looking for transport. Where do you bring her? West Virginia, places like the Greenbriar Hotel, is where the government has it’s emergency shelters capable of running government. You know damn well she would scream and holler NOOOOOO!!! if they said they had to take her to West Virginia. That’s a extremely bad idea, most likely that is where Trump would be anyway, with the bulk of the federal government (what has military capacity especially) backing him.
It is just a extremely bad idea. No scenario ends with Hillary ruling, short of her nuking half the nation to hell. One thing if she can win legitimately in 2020, but it will not occur until at least then, war will certainly result and a counter-coup to return the presidency to Trump.
You don’t sacrifice the circus for sake of one clown.
You don’t? History is littered by people who thought this. They became sheeple on way to the slaughter.
I see what your saying, but just to be pedantic, this would be completely in line with the Constitutional system and the vision of the Founders. The Electoral College exists to prevent demagogues from swindling their way into office.
The postmortems of this election are fascinating. The composition of the electorate is very similar to what it was in 2012, and the breakdown by race, gender, education, income, etc. is very similar, but because all the data nerds are liberals and grieving, there’s this ongoing attempt to create simplistic narratives that connect race and class and gender in ways that weren’t explored like this in 2012. But the connections are the same.
The Democrats lost by basically nothing. If we’d held the election a week earlier, or a week later, it would probably have come out differently. I’d say the Dems played it almost perfectly, since winning by more would have meant selling out some values, alienating people on the left to attract some people on the right. They were only imperfect in that they lost on the draw.
Uh-huh … and look around.
“I’m the best. I have everything on my side. If I hadn’t lost, I would have won the game!!” 
Politics is a game of luck and skill. A perfectly played election can still be lost by bad luck. We know that rain affects election outcomes significantly. Economic shocks, terrorist attacks, deaths of celebrities, etc. all shift the vote.
So there’s no inconsistency in saying that an election was played flawlessly and lost.
Are the democrats left out in the rain?
If so, then they could learn something from the Pope.
