Vigilantes? Good or Bad?

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
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Good or Bad?

  • Good
  • Bad
0 voters

The society that we live in today is corrupted. Wherever there is good there will always be evil it seems. I dont believe there will ever be a utopia and i pray there wont be. But why can’t the society we live in be a better place? Police track down criminals and arrest them… but they just get back out… well in the US. Some other places, major crimes are considered very serious and are punishable by death. With so many laws protecting criminals… how can we destroy them?

We give criminals way too much comfort and opportunity in the US.
Everyday people are raped and murdered and little is done to prevent them. Sure police find some* of these criminals but not enough as it contiunes… Iv always felt there should be people in our world who can help stop crime the real way.

Killing the criminals before the police can arrest them. Vigilantes are good in a sense but they can be bad… Who is to patrol vigilantes? What if a vigilante decides that someone stealing someone elses belongings deserves death? Iv always felt that rape/murder deserves death. Others disagree for god knows what reason as they find that maybe these higher criminals can change their ways in prison which rarely happens as most criminals go back to their old ways.

They are protected by laws… Of course there are political idiots who make these laws to help criminals… I believe its the democrats…(im not sure, because im ignorant when it comes to politics) but i dont care for politics so i wont dwell on that and im not a republican or a democrat or belong to any party. Politics and lawyers make these laws to help out the criminals. Taking away the death penalty in most states. Finding loopholes to get criminals off the hook. Appealing for cases and making it so criminals live longer and get back onto our streets. The people who are against death pentalty, more severe punishments, and vigliantes are the people who have never witnessed a rape or a murder and are complelty ignorant or such things.

There are other people who are against it for a living. Lawyers. As laws make up our nation and money hungry lawyers play any card that will give them the cash even if it is to help out the evil that pollutes our society. So i gotta wonder… What do we do as civilians to stop criminals? Do we just wait for the police to find some guy who has raped a little kid and fled the state before the police could capture him because of not having a “Search Warrant”.

How can police crack down on these criminals? We as a people need to fight the criminals ourselves or be consumed by the society that benefits them. Let our children die to a psychopath who loves torturing little kids and raping them and then killing them…?? If you believe this kind of situtation doesn’t happen your complelty ignorant of the world we live in today… People are raped and murderd all the time and we live happily until something happens to us. We say let the police deal with it… But they will only take them off the street for a certain time. What can we do as civilians? Well, currently we can’t do anything or we will be prosecuted by some lawyer for hurting their insane criminal who didnt understand that raping people was bad. We cant stop these people because of the laws set forth…

So is viliante something we should even consider taking a part of? I feel that vigilante is a good thing to some extent but i know that one person(me) ever trying to help out the world by attempting to stop criminals would be difficult. Where would i start? If i joined the police i would be just as helpless as them. Needing search warrants for getting a sick homicidal rapist. I wonder why people ask… Why is our world so bad?.. Well kiddo, we made it this bad… We choose to put our lives in the hands of politics/police/lawyers…

I hope that some of you consider that maybe your choice as a human to do the right thing at the time that such a situation comes that requires vigilante and justice that you take it… Or you can always think back as to, “if i had just stopped him, none of those girls would of been raped… i decided to let the police deal with the situation which ended up in 5 murders…” … Ok this is just a hypothetical situation… but if you think shit like this never happens you have much to learn about the real world. This is normal what serial killers do…

Vigilantes could help kill the vermin but its a highly unlikly situation. There are not many Vigilante Professionals and maybe there are none. But i have always had the dream/vision of wanting to just stop the life i live to come somewhat of a guardian for people. Not a hero. We think of superheros like batman or superman who know where people are getting hurt and come just in the nick of time. I mean something else… someone who does the tracking down of criminals and killing them before they can murder innocent people again. Maybe not killing them… Maybe disabling them of their weapons… Hands. feet. See how they enjoy living the life they make for other people.

Some people would say that is evil in itself but i feel that its making life a better place even though it may be sacraficing oneself for the benefit of others. So… Vigilante … Good or bad???

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If you say Yes or no, please give me an explained answer too… Im curious as to other peoples opinions on such a matter… i dont want to be the only person making a fool of themselve. :slight_smile: i know there are some intelligent people on this site who could help me out by making me doubt vigilante as a good thing. I would enjoy commenting back and i really hope there are some people on this site that have something other than answers such as a quote or a single line.

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Well I think in a capitolistic society… which is inherently based on the concept of ‘freedom to’ instead of ‘freedom from’, something you’d find a socialist society. So with that being said… there is always going to be an elevated level of crime… due to the rights that criminals (but at the same time citizens) get.

As for vigilantes… it’s a good idea in theory, but I think that in terms of a national level… they would eventually do more harm than good. It takes time for people to become currupted by the money that capitolism can offer. Similiar to all the dirty cops we see in inner cities. vigilantes would only add another, less controllable, less accountable, less trained guy with a gun on the streets.

I think that if you really feel certain criminals deserve death… it would be alot more efficient to simply raise some money within the community… and hire a hitman.

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You say they would do “more harm than good” lol

  1. JUSTICE (they dont fucking destroy it as you put it that they could… more harm than good? wtf is that? They are doing good, thats their purpose to do good, or they are the fucking criminal!!)

This is why i mentioned, “professional vigilantes” , no really, i realize you cant give any random person a gun and say go stop criminals… Thats why i said, what can i do? Hire a hitman? uhhhh, paying someone to kill for god knows what reason is not vigilante(this is what hitman do, hire to kill for money, not vigilante work for goodness of our world… they have no morals and they kill innocent people) and ur missing the point of the topic. Is it GOOD OR BAD??? WHY??? … Your not making any sense with your remark… I also mentioned im completly ignorant to politics so ur capitalist whatever crap is not connecting. Please explain to me why i shouldn’t learn how to kill, then go out and kill criminals as an assassin(these arent hitmen) not doing it for money(not a fucking hitman) but for a good cause overall… i guess u dont see the big picture. if i kill someone im just as bad as they are(you the person that would say that shit? two wrongs dont make a right kind of person? No idea that some people have to do things as sacrafices)… but in doing so im protecting others… Its called sacrafice… ever heard of devils advocate??? READ THAT book.(NOT that keanu reaves shit movie) By killing, (doing the wrong thing but by killing bad people… i make the world a safer place… less criminals = world a better place… You couldnt of read of my entire thread with that simple and illogical response…

You say vigilantes are less controllable, less accountable? less trained? Vigilantes are more controlled(THEY have a purpose!), more accountable (they understand what they are getting into! ITS ILLEGAL) and can be more trained(professional, how the fuck you think a hitman get trained?(well what do yall know! they are illegal too! and you said hire one? Wtf is that bro? Hire some evil fuck to kill criminals… Hitmen are criminals…)

Vigilantes could form a group but its illegal!, just like Marijuana… but they still have groups! Teach people then if they are less controllable or accountable or trained…! Vigilantes are there to help out in justice, not kill it(your thinking of outlaws or criminals not a vigilante)

If you think ur local vigilante is some random guy with a gun wth no exerience and is killing whoever, your not looking at a vigilante but a maniac with a gun who has no purpose…

Would it be good if there were more vigilantes to help? Or is it bad?

telling me your some capitalist doesnt help answer my question but just makes me feel sorry for a narrow minded person who falls into “one set mind ideals” which i call politics… People who have one fucking opinon on such a matter as death penatly… HOW DOES A POLITIC agree and DISAGREE with sucha topic! They have little perception are they see things only from one way. THEIR PARTIES VIEWS. They cant, Thats what fucking politics do. They debate to one fucking side and that side only. Take your politic shit elsewhere. You have no idea what a vigilante is and im terribly sorry for being so rude and mean towards you but your answer doesnt help! (and it pisses me off that you would be capitalist shit in a vigilante thread)

THank you for reading everything i wrote as i know a clever guy such as you would and im sorry for being insulting and sarcasitc but dont come into a thread with that shit without expecting to get an ear full from what i gotta say.

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Hi BP. Welcome.

In modern society, we are protected by laws which say if you break the law, the state will have the police apprehend you, you get a trial and, if found guilty in all fairness, punished. If vigilantes work violence outside the law of society, their works are also liable to be punished by society. If you mean deputised vigilantes, this would not be the case. Also, we have “citizen’s arrests” so you can apprehend someone, i think, if you use as little force as necessary.

However, and this might agree with your fire of indignation, one wonders if there is not more to society than positive law*. If someone commits an atrocity against natural law**, one might think they deserve to be punished irrespective of the positive (state) law. (I wonder if that’s why the pre-kingdom Hebrews of the Old Covenant were to communally stone people.)

Still, vigilanteism would still get you arrested even in America, unless immediately defending yourself or your property (or others?). But part of the problem comes when the amateur sleuth-vigilante apprehends and shoots the wrong person, in ignorance – no one likes to hear about that.

*positive law: belief there is no right or wrong outside of legislation

**natural law: belief we have rights that are natural to us

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No really? never knew that…, i think did mention that only so many times about arrests and trails and punishment, but thank you so much for the clarification!!! … so Thanks for answering the question man!(thats sarcasim sorry but im only this mean when an idiot decides to answer)(GOOD OR BAD!!!). Really, i want some good answers people…

Not common sense knowledge of western civilization. You think im just going to grab a gun and hunt down these people. It takes a lot of work. Professionalism. You think hitmen are easily caught? You think they turn themselves in?

“Still, vigilanteism would still get you arrested even in America, unless immediately defending yourself or your property (or others?).”

No really, it is illegal and i only said that so many times. thank you so much! Thats why its called professionalism. Not getting caught! Vigilantes dont kill people and turn themselves in or do it sloppily. The vigilante i speak of is(IF YOU READ MY POSTS which i know you didnt or an intelligent person would not be typing that shit you just typed!) they are professionals(not hitmen). A group of people… who hunt down bad guys…

Sorta like all the govt groups which serve some purpose as to justice but as to what they please. FBI. COPS. CIA. DEA. All these groups that were formed to help crack down on criminals of all sorts but we still have problems which are getting worse by the day… They dont do enough! If they even catch criminals!, they will just trial them and let them live…

This is where vigilante comes in. You need to read my posts as i put out the picture very clearly. these people do not deserve to live or deserve a different punisment than jail or prison!(cut off a hand or two, They do this shit in other countries and they dont have as many problems as we do).

Our prisons are overcroweded with psychopaths who deserve death. Why? because of the laws that money sucking lawyers put up to protect them. They get 20 years and come out ready to massacre again! Rape more!. And we just catch them again and put them in jail again!. you dont get it i guess, the point of my vigilante ideal is to stop these criminals. not delay them. Make it so they can never hurt innocent people ever again. you think PRISON will stop that? You know they kill each other in prison too!! And do you think that all peoplein prison are murderers/rapists??? NO. They can be small time criminals for stealing who get KILLEd in prison because we put murderers in there or WORSE They can be inncocent!.

We dont execute them because its"wrong" but its ok for them to do it and just go to prison! GIVE ME A fucking good answer as to if its bad or good and what a good solution would be to help stop the criminal sadistic world we live in today! which most of you seem ignorant and oblivous about! GET A FUCKING CLue, learn to read before u post ur ignorant ideas. im sorry for getting pissed off and using profanity but i dont see how u people can read what i type and type the exact same thing… or type what has already been pointed out!

Prisons are made for drug dealers/and other small time criminals. Coffins are made for Murderers/Rapists.

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Listen… blazer, It’s not my fault that you don’t know anything about politics… cause your asking a question that requires a little bit of knowledge.

Anyways… my main point is that in the long run… vigilates will do more harm than good. So for instance… we have this group of people who work on their own definition of justice… they just go out and lay waste to that which they perceive as people who should be killed.

Not only will these eventually become currupt with the use of so much power on the unsupervised streets, but it will breed an overall trend of ‘taking matters into your own hands’ if you have a government sactioned group (it would have to be… or they would be arrested by real cops) operating outside the law… then the people within it will feel more inclined to do also, which will then breed more problems… etc etc

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Blazed Philosopher, (do you like Pascal?)

I’m sorry i only scanned your post – it is a little uninviting to read a large block of text without paragraphs.

Bad.

As long as the state does it’s job, there should be no need for vigilantes.
If you think criminals get off too easily, work for the death penalty.

And if the government isn’t doing it’s job, “Agitate. Agitate, agitate.” (Frederick Douglas)

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Dinna-Dinna-Dinna-Dinna, Dinna-Dinna-Dinna-Dinna…

All too soon those who are vigillantes become that which they fight. Leave vengeance to the faceless system with the wigs and the gavvels, it sometimes doesn’t quite satisfy the bloodlust for righteous revenge, but once a group becomes too large for one to know all, it becomes necessary.

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Vigilanties have, in fact existed for quite some time now. They are most often police and prosecuters who KNOW they have the right guy but can’t come up with the evidence that would appease the criminal coddling judge and/or jury so they sorta kinda fudge things here and there. Then they go to bed feeling satisfied that they’ve made the world a safer place.

Fast foreward a few years and OOPS! DNA testing comes along and shows that the wrong guy has been in prison, perhaps even on death row for a decade or more in some cases! Justice? Who goes to jail over wrongfully imprisoned people? Who get’s a lethal injection over a wrongfully executed person? Who goes to jail for accessory to whatever crimes the real criminal has perpetrated while some poor schmuck has been paying off his debt to society?

Now, you say it is ok to kill a murderer or a rapist but not a petty theif. Is that not something like saying that some criminals have rights? (not to be killed over having stolen a box of cereal for instance)

I would conjecture that a person who leads an honerable, law abiding, but stressful life (lets toss in there that he benifits the society in general) could one day meet up with an annoying personality that pushes him beyand his capacity for self control. Annoying person then ceases to be annoying… or anything else for that matter. Our otherwise good man, now shocked and remorseful at his own behavior, should then be made to die or rot in prison for the rest of his days? Should society lose a valuable asset?

I would say that he should lose something significant (a few years of freedom perhaps) as a pennance (in a secular sort of way) and also so that some deterrent is maintained. He should also be required to alter his lifestyle to prevent further incedents.

The point here is that justice is sometimes more complicated when you look at it.

Now, It would be possible to find cases where a certain type of vigilante activity is more efficient in dealing out justice (even thoughtful, nuanced justice) than the legal system is but given what vigilanteism can end up being (spur of the moment, highly emotional, non-reasoning, scapegoating, etc.), I think it’s a good thing we have gotten beyond it. Likewise, certain molds are good for healing certain ills but I’m not going to resort to eating the whatever-it-is that once was leftover food in the back of the fridge the next time I get a really bad cold.

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I feel like im talking to a wall. I type something but the words dont get through… I feel sorry that none of you intellects can read my BIG BLOCK(im sorry u have ADD, and cant take 5min to read something so complex!) paragraph as i dont type much on sites but conversate with real people on such subjects its quite hard to confer to the witless

If you think the Govt does its job you gotta be ignorant of the world… Look at the world we live in today… I bet you guys might enjoy living in your nice little homes all happy with what you have and lucky enough to be safe to go outside.

Others dont have what you have and you dont realize this. I cant get that shit into ur mind because ur unable to accept the truth of our world. Its a sick sad place and saying that leave it all alone wont help. People will continue to murder and rape and your life will have nothing of it as you are not the people who have suffered it or wouldnt be protecting criminals.

Our laws were created by idiots. The foundation of our country was great… But the aftermath was horrible. Politics took over…

Have any of you guys seen the movie, “The Untouchables”

That movie is a perfect example of my point. You dont see the police arresting in that movie but killing crime bosses… Our world was much safer(postdecade) then than it is now.

How do u think the mafia was taken down? Many mafia members were killed by cops/vigilantes. Now in mordern time… we give these same criminals more protection because of politics. Political lawyers do all they can to help criminals and you know this… They do it for money… Not for the welfare of the people but for money.

“Anyways… my main point is that in the long run… vigilates will do more harm than good. So for instance… we have this group of people who work on their own definition of justice… they just go out and lay waste to that which they perceive as people who should be killed” - Old_gobbo

Isnt this what we do now? Isnt that what the FBI and Police do… Kill people who they think need to be taken down… The only problem is that police don’t always take them down. Thats where a vigilante needs to come. To finish the job.

Im sorry but none of your remarks have anything to do what i had typed and i know this because you guys admit you didnt read my BLOCK paragraph and i wouldnt be recieving ur ignorant remakrs had you read it.

“Fast foreward a few years and OOPS! DNA testing comes along and shows that the wrong guy has been in prison, perhaps even on death row for a decade or more in some cases! Justice? Who goes to jail over wrongfully imprisoned people? Who get’s a lethal injection over a wrongfully executed person? Who goes to jail for accessory to whatever crimes the real criminal has perpetrated while some poor schmuck has been paying off his debt to society?” -ert

and whos fault is that? Police? why are u telling me this? You think im gonna go hunt down some random guy who “might” be a criminal… No, i mean hunting down known suspects.

Look at america’s most wanted… You think these people are innocent…?? comon, they wouldnt be in hiding if they were… These people need to die. Thats where vigilante comes in. Tracking down these murders who are known for it and killing them.

A fool would say let them live longer by putting them in prison and maybe they will learn. THEY KILL IN PRISON TOO! And just like you said, there are innocent people in prison(THey are in danger)… WHY are we letting them live!!! are u retarded??

I feel bad for people who were raised in ignorance and think they are clever because they can answer a thread on the net with common sense knowledge rather than a logical explanation on a “philosophy site”.

All 3-4 people who have posted besides me just dont get it! Read my big block. Ur SMARt enough aren’t you? your not that much of an ADD Person are you? Cant you take 5 min to read that entire block(3 blocks, lol) and acctully understand what im typing. Dont type if your gonna give me a half-assed answer. I want an explanation from someone who can read the thread and not just the title…

The reason i came to this site was to get some good answers but all iv seen in most of the peoples threads or posts are foolish answers and ideals i know little 8-9 year olds have.

You People are pathetic to call your self a philosopher as most of you remind me of how i use to think when i was 10 or 11. A little kid could give me a better answer than…

“Thats why we have prisons, This is why we have courts. That is why we dont kill them because we have these things called laws” NO FUCking really.

I feel like you guys dont understand the depth of the thread but more of what “common sense knowledge of our justice system” you can put out to try and make your self sound like you know what ur talking about.

If you have any comment after this. Quote what i say in my other comments(THOSE 3 BIG BLOCKS) please so i can understand what your trying to refer to me because just giving me some shity answer with no substance is annoying for someone who really wants a good answer.

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Ok im sorry this thread went to hell because i didnt type in smaller paragraphs…

So what i did was edit it so you b kids[/b] who cant read a big block of writing, who just skim everything can now fully understand the TOPIC.

When i typed vigilante good or bad… i wasnt just asking it in general… I meant about what i typed about vigilantes(ALL THOSE PARAGRAPHS ON IT)… Not VIGIALNTE In general.

So maybe when you read everything i have typed you will understand why your answers are so bad and make no sense and have totally pissed me off.

So enough with the answers like “well viglante is killing people and it could do more harm than good”

Tell me what you think about WHAT i typed, Not your opinon on what vigilante is… When i started the thread it was not just about the title but about what i have to say about vigilante and no one has given me a response about what “i think vigilante is about”

READ CAREFULLY before you post your answers and make sure you dont make your self sound stupid by posting well known facts that already were pointed out.

I thought this over throughoutly and when i read my responses and those of others i just cant believe that people could acctualy type that shit they did.

READ IT ALL before you decide to post your nonsense about courts and politics which have nothing to do with what im talking about.

The TOPIC is on what i think of vigilante and what it could be, and is my idea GOOD OR BAD? read my ideas firstplease and tell me…

I really want to help make the world a safer place and what i have typed clearly explains how it can be! READ IT ALL PLEASE…

Professional vigilante? Is it possible?

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Let me put this in words you might understand (and I apologise in advance to the rest of the readers): Shut the fuck up and think for a bit. Your argument is full of holes. People have tried to point this out and, while you accuse them of not reading your posts, you have not read theirs (or, at least, you haven’t read them and tried to understand them).

Let’s talk facts. Most western countries do not have a death penalty, and they have a much lower crime rate than the US. There is no simple explanation for this: there are many social differences which result in this. But this does mean that a harsher death penalty regime will not directly result in a lower crime rate. The conclusion is true whether the death penalty is legal or para-legal (what you call professional vigilantes).

Ert has pointed out that these para-legal vigilantes exist (within law enforcement), and that they have resulted in a number of false imprisonments (and the number is not small – a quick Google search turned up an article which claimed that Illiois had overturned 13 death row convictions and executed 12 people*). Your response was:

Here’s a free clue: go and look up “suspect” in the dictionary.

I know that you’re full of righteous wrath at the level of criminal activity in your country. But you’re not thinking straight: you’re not looking at real evidence for/against vigilantism. Instead, you have a romantic view of the good that vigilantism can achieve, and are blind to the pitfalls. And you, and people like you, are the most likely to sign up for this quasi-legal vengence. That is what scares me most.

Let me pick up on just one more point. You say:

OK, let’s imagine that you’ve been accused of something you didn’t do. Now imagine that there is a posse of vigilantes who will kill you first and ask questions later. What will you do: hide, or come out with your hands up?

Yes, I realise that you were talking about America’s most wanted list, and the odds are that they are all guilty, but the point is valid because, once you have professional vigilantes, they will not restrict themselves to those on the list; they will decide for themselves who gets to live and who to die.

Or did you mean that vigilantism will only apply to the most wanted list? In that case, the professionals (i.e. people who do something for money) already exist. They’re called informers, and the legal framework is called the reward system: and all you have to do is give information to the police. No killing, no risk to yourself and no breaking the law. What’s the problem? Does that take all the fun out of it?

Leathon

  • http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1231b-1.html. I make no representations for the accuracy of this site; as I say, it was a quick search. But this supports what I remember reading elsewhere, so I offer is as support for my assertions. If it is inaccurate, please let me know.
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Blazed,

Thank you for the paragraphs. I think Leathon put a lot well. But it occurred to me there was at least one more issue to being up.

Principle. In your question are we to act on principle (same for all) or act according to the wrath we feel for individuals. What you say seems to be asking for a general exemption from principles we/I have been arguing for. Is that the difference that you seek – to allow for the unlawful?

You do know that if you caught someone in the act of a moral atrocity you have the duty/right to stop them – as part of the state, i think. (And if you didn’t catch them in the act, how do you know they’re guilty?)

But this last part is a repeat.

mrn

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I like how the Batman storyline has continually asked and answered the question about the vigilante archetype again and again. It was covered that Batman was either some guy trying to clean up Gotham in a manner that the good cops weren’t able to do, or he was just another psychopath like the rest of the loons roaming the cityscape.

The thing about vigilantes is, we never really see them spring up into action and take matters into their own hands unless we notice that without a doubt, the system isn’t working to keep crime at bay. Take Gotham for example, the underworld of crime owned just about every figure of power in the city, the majority of police were corrupt to the point where they would turn the other cheek whenever a crime was committed, and in some cases, commit those crimes themselves.

Vigilante work is a matter of grave desperation, a last ditch effort to convene what last good remains in the system to bring things back into balance. On a more political scale, even economic, we could say that the Visigoths as a whole was an agent of vigilantism, striking out against a corrupt and failing Roman power that once glorified a system of order and peace which, before falling to the gothic hordes, had all but nearly abandoned such an ideal.

16

wow… I wouldnt be accusing them if i hadnt read their posts.i must have read their posts or i wouldnt be saying anything. You need to shut the fuck before you respond with that bs… full of holes? how so. You tell me and quote me. The quotes of urs below of mine make no sense as to why your argueing with them when i tell you its about Americas most wanted and what i say is clear. THE only i mistyped in that was “known suspects”, which i meant as “known criminals”. Because they are, the ones on americas most wanted, and yes, they are running for the law making them guilty of the crimes as if they were innocent they would have nothing to fear… But they aren’t.

“OK, let’s imagine that you’ve been accused of something you didn’t do. Now imagine that there is a posse of vigilantes who will kill you first and ask questions later. What will you do: hide, or come out with your hands up?”

HELLO, WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT INNOCENT PEOPLE HERE

What is there to ask questions about? They are on americas most wanted and they are criminals. Thats the point of the vigilante thing is to kill them, Not say" Oh mr bad guy will you please point ur gun elsewhere and come sit down with me and we will talk this over" FUCK NO, you kill the lunatic. There is no questions about are you sure ur not guiltiy? i mean i know you confessed and ur on the run but are u sure ur not just making this all up and that truly you are a good person…

Comon bro, these guys are horrible people and your the kinda fuck head who would try and make peace with the guy whos firing rounds at you and at the cops.

“Yes, I realise that you were talking about America’s most wanted list, and the odds are that they are all guilty, but the point is valid because, once you have professional vigilantes, they will not restrict themselves to those on the list; they will decide for themselves who gets to live and who to die” - LEathon

THEN WHY THE fuck did you type that shit! WTf is wrong with you…
If a vigilante is killing people who are just suspects but not “known criminals”, THEN HES NOT A VIGILANTE, hes a fucking idiot. I dont get how you can ask me these questions and not figure it out… let me give you something i typed earlier to help make you understand.

“We think of superheros like batman or superman who know where people are getting hurt and come just in the nick of time. I mean something else… someone who does the tracking down of criminals and killing them before they can murder innocent people again.” -BP

Ok now, Someone who does the tracking down of criminals and killing them before they can murder innocent people again.

WHAt has that have to with suspects. Nothing. Criminals are criminals not suspects. So wtf are u trying to tell me that i could be killing the wrong people. That tracking down someone “whos a known criminal(high crimes)” and “probably in the hiding” or “police cant do anything with out a warrant” and killing of this person is not killing an innocent person. Its just taking this guy out of our world and not giving him the chance to murder again.

“Or did you mean that vigilantism will only apply to the most wanted list? In that case, the professionals (i.e. people who do something for money) already exist. They’re called informers, and the legal framework is called the reward system: and all you have to do is give information to the police. No killing, no risk to yourself and no breaking the law. What’s the problem? Does that take all the fun out of it?”

Hello. No really. But that takes the point out of vigilantism. If he lives, that deafeats the purpose im putting out. That he will just go to prison where he can murder more while there or when he gets out. Ill take a reward for killing his ass too if they will give me one but i think they prefer that i get them when they are alive :wink: .

Batman brings a good point to the vigilante thing too… As i mentioned it earlier, hes someone who comes in the nick of time tho. He doesnt go searching for criminals who are in hiding. He protect gotham. But he is a vigilante. Batman kills criminals and does the world a favor by saving future victims and this comes to my point of vigilantes.

Batman would be the best example of one. The one im talking about. A vigilante who tracks down criminals and kills them cleanly without being seen, An assassin. I know this sounds out-there and i really doubt many people are Assassin’s for the good of our world but are rather"Assassin’s for money"(hitman).

Not all of you live in bad neighborhoods so you wouldnt know the terror of having gangs in your neighborhood or rapists who prowl the night, as im sure most of you are living in nice suburbia. i know there will be vigilantes soon to come as crime is getting worse even in places you wouldnt think it would exist.

Gotham city is a good picture of what some of LA is like, and i know that none of you have been to the bad neighborhoods there or you wouldnt be telling me off but saying but rather wondering if i had the balls to try and stop these fucking murderers/rapists who walk the streets and police do nothing about it as crime is too high to stop it all and they really dont give a fuck about the lower neighborhoods.

Yes you can sit there completly ignorant of life in other places and say that crime is fine and that police do their jobs well and that the world is a better place without someone trying to help more but you will never know the shit i know and have never seen what i have seen of people who have been murdered or raped and there is nothing you can do… but watch as you are helpess to some lunatic holding a gun and raping someone you know. You dont know about shit like this that happens and you think the world is fine. People need to die, it makes the world a better place when evil is destroyed but idiot people like you fight for these criminals instead of helping destroy them.

Maybe if you were raised different some of your feelings and ideals would help support what i am saying. Vigilantes can be a very good thing, people are just skeptical about it because it is killing people"bad people"

17

Wow! You make a lot of assumptions about me! I hope you won’t mind if I ignore those and address the issues instead.

The issue I want to address in this post is the difference between suspects and criminals. I have read all your posts, and you are quite clear (apart from one slip) that the vigilantes will kill criminals, not suspects. The question which you never answer (in fact, you never give a hint that it is a question which needs answering) is, how is it determined that a person is a criminal?

You are not talking about a person being caught in the act, since you have said, “We think of superheros like batman or superman who know where people are getting hurt and come just in the nick of time. I mean something else… someone who does the tracking down of criminals and killing them before they can murder innocent people again.” So the guilt is not obvious, it has to be determined somehow. (Even when someone is “caught in the act”, the guilt is not always obvious, but let’s leave this aside for this discussion).

Also, I hazard a guess that you don’t mean that there is a full-blown trial (without the suspect being present), since you feel that many people are not convicted even though they should be (in your original post, you say, “Finding loopholes to get criminals off the hook. Appealing for cases and making it so criminals live longer and get back onto our streets.”)

So I’m guessing that you want some weakened method of deciding guilt. Perhaps there is a court case, but with guilt decided “on balance of probabilities” instead of “beyond reasonable doubt”; or perhaps the police decide when they feel that they have enough evidence; or perhaps the vigilante (or vigilante group) decide. You say:

Easy to say. Please think this through and let us know how you envisage this determination of guilt. It is not a clear-cut as you indicate; it’s not good enough to say,

It may surprise you to know that some of those people who have been freed from Death Row due to the appearance of new evidence (specifically, DNA testing) had confessed to the crimes*.

And what’s this rubbish about “police cant do anything with out a warrant”? If they have the sort of evidence that we’re talking about to be reasonably sure about guilt, a warrent is no problem. You’re lumping a whole bunch of situations together and are saying that vigilantism will solve them because they don’t need to jump through the hoops that police must jump through, yet there’s no danger because they will only target guilty people! But if they don’t have to jump through these “hoops”, then they won’t know who to target. The “hoops” are put in place to protect innocent people: perhaps you are saying that the innocent should not be so strongly protected from police and vigilantes, but if so please be honest and say so clearly: that would be an interesting discussion, but would not require vigilantes (we could give police more powers and/or indemnify them against mistakes).

As for Batman, I haven’t read much of him recently, but the Batman I remember always handed over captured criminals to the police. Perhaps he’s changed. What springs to my mind is rather Judge Dredd, who is essentially judge, jury and executioner.

Lastly, I’d like to address your point about bad neighbourhoods. Going after the people on America’s most wanted list will do nothing to clean up those neighbourhoods. They’re terrorised by gangs, petty druglords and other minor criminals. I don’t mean to diminish the impact of their reign of terror on ordinary people, only to point out that the perpetrators are not on the list. It is difficult to collect evidence against these people, so how do you tell that the gang member you kill is guilty of rape and murder, or only guilty of car theft? Or does car theft become a capital crime when you let loose the vigilantes?

I come from a city where a group of vigilantes was formed to combat gangserism and drugs. It did some good at first, but went on to become one of the most feared groups in the area (feared by innocent people – it was always feared by the gangsters), and ended up carrying out a large number of terrorist attacks (see, for example, http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=4194). You may say that this would not happen to your group of vigilantes, but you need to describe some sort of structure which will prevent it; it’s not enough to rely on human nature (as thousands of years of society have shown us). I suspect that if you think these structures through, you’ll come up with something very like the police force.
– Leathon

18

Actually, you may use whatever force is needed to stop a felony in progress. That is not vigilanteism. Maybe what you should advocate for is conceal and carry laws. I’m not opposed to MANDITORY firearm possesion. It would improve the level of civility everywhere.

If the police do not maintain safety in the neighborhoods, people will form groups to protect themselves. This is how many of our most loved street gangs got their start.

19

Leathon,

Thank you for acctualy reading it all and understanding what the others couldn’t. You proved good points about “how to determine they are guilty or not” or “even if they are caught ont he scene”. The people you said, Who would you determine as to who will be killed would be “murderer/rapists”. Who have done it, and are in the hiding and have been told to eye witnesses, and have been DNA checked.

Criminals arent always stupid, leaving little evidence of if they really did it but there is that major % of criminals who rape and murder and leave plenty and flee. These are the people im talking about. The rapist who leaves a “sexual trace”, and who also leaves her dead with enough evidence to claim he was there. But now to my point…

So lets say one of these criminals is in the hiding… Police dont want to kill the person… but try and capture them.

Now, here comes my thought of vigilantism. Now, before i say anything else, i want to clarify that vigilantism doesnt have to be a group of people. It can be one person who works a lone. So, issues “that you had in ur town” wont happen as it is only one person who goes by their rules and things wont get out of “control”.

Now as a vigilante/solo/batman like, the vigilante*(uno) would find this peron b4 the cops, Tracking him down as best he could. And they would assassinate this criminal before the the police can arrest the “known criminal”.

So as to your quote i posted, There is no group. its an idea, and you proved that wrong, i never thought a group might work well, as it would be hard keeping things controlled as a secret.

Vigilante(one im speaking of) would not be your average person who goes out in the middle of day to try and kill someone.

He prowls the predators at night, when they are alone, or asleep and assassinate them so things dont get out of control and the vigilante prevents being caught. If he was noticed, the gig is up.

So how to protect the vigilante/assassin, wear a mask, all superheros do because they dont want to be known or they would be arrested by the police, just like batman/spiderman ect.

I know bring spiderman or batman in this converstation is quite lame but its not as far fetched. Sure i might not have web slining abilities or flying capabilities, but this doesnt prevent me from assassinating a criminal.

Leave the minor criminals to police… But the big ones… they deserve something more.

If you believe that someone who would do this would take no time to make sure the “criminal” is not as bad as he think he is, your wrong. The vigilante would take time finding this criminal and confirming his right to kill.

If there were vigilantes on the street at night, i would be against this. I would not want people prowling my neighorhood just to try and protect it.
This is what cops are for.

I suppose what i meant with “vigilante” was… Assassin of Murderers.

Its something that if someone took as a part time thing, which no one would know who they truly are during the day, it would be tuff. Look at batman, he has to live a double life and so would the vigilante. The vigilante i speak of is not someone who goes around all day looking for bad guys but rather taking them out whenever he can with the best of knowledge of who the criminal is and what punishment he deserves.

As i have said, the vigilante would not be out looking for petty thieves or drug dealers but the real bad guys. The ones who i believe “deserve nothing more than what they have done to their victims.” Death.

Thank you leathon for putting some thought into your comments and understanding where i am coming from and i hope this last response i just put in will help you understand where i am coming from better…

Im not saying im going to become a vigilante assassin over night one night… lol… i just think its an idea… Something i know requires the greatest sacrafice of all, which is ur soul, but for a better world. One persons life for many others. It would be something very hard to do.

“those gangs of vigilantes are outlaws!” the ones you meant at ur town, they are not the vigilantes i speak of. A controlled, understanind and accountable vigilante who is professional and is doing this secretly.

so i gotta ask you and everyone else… Because i know i didnt put it clear enough earlier about my idea that i always had in my mind. Do you think the world would be better if someone was out killing murderers at night while we all slept and nothing bad happened. No innocent people dieing.

Again thank you for thinking out ur response leathon. Hopefully we can talk about this more as you have helped me realize somethings i didnt see before.

20

BP, firstly I want to thank you for reading my post and making the effort to understand what I was trying to say. I spent a lot of time on that post, and, since we are clearly at opposite poles in this debate, I was afraid that you would ignore the important questions that I was trying to address. You have not ignored them, and have raised some interesting points in response.

It’s late here, so I just want to answer this question before going to bed. My initial instinct is to say, “Yes, I think that the world would be better”. There are some side-effects that need to be considered (e.g. is a rapist more likely to kill their victim if they know that identification will bring a vigilante after them), but in your ideal situation, …

Here, I started out by writing, “I have no objection to a killing a murderer.” But, on rereading my response, I feel that I do have an objection. This is hard to describe, but I feel that “an eye for an eye” diminishes society; that we as a whole should be better that the criminals. So my feeling is that putting them in prison forever is somehow better (more moral) than killing them. I need to think over this a bit more…

But in either case, my objection is that it does not work that way in reality. You say,

But how is this person accountable if they are working secretly? And if they are not working secretly, and they have the tacit approval of the police (and of societY), then what is to stop several people forming a group with the same ends? So, as I said previously, I feel that your view of vigilantes is romantic, by which I mean that it does not work in real life. Once we put a vigilante in a real situation, I have a hard time believing that they will have a better success rate than the police (if we include appropriate safeguards for the innocent).

Leathon