We need spirituality!

[James_S_Saint]

@Bob

@James S Saint

That is a poor definition of spirituality.

Spirit is about the flow of action, behavior.
High spirit refers to enthusiasm and high hopes that cause action.
Low spirit refers to depression and lack of hope that causes idleness.

The religions are all about the behavior of people as individuals, but more often as groups.
Religion MEANS, “maintaining the legion/group”.

The “spirit” is the behavior or flow of action.
Spiritualism, is a focus on such concerns.

To say that we need spirituality is to say that we need to focus on perceived hopes and threats, PHT.
Such things often relate to God or other thoughts of behavioral hope or threat.

Thank you for your perspective … perhaps we’ll get to appreciate each others views in the course of time …

Sorry that I didn’t note…

I was merely responding to your immediately prior post concerning that definition.
As far as your OP, I agree with almost all of it (else I would have been bitch’n more ).

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

I consider anything that improves the soul as spiritually valuable, and as a form of spirituality.

Making friends and being free from evil, virtueous, this lasts until the next living.
That is because the friend’s souls will remember us.
Trying to develop a relationship with a deity is too hard, in most cases.
There’s allot of fake relationships out there with deities. One way, nobody there on the other end of the prayers.

Meditation, learning and direct magic are also improvements of the soul.

[James_S_Saint]

@Dan~

Trying to develop a relationship with a deity is too hard, in most cases.

That is merely an issue of truly knowing the “deity”.
Very, very few people actually know their deities except by label and purported character.

@Dan~

One way, nobody there on the other end of the prayers.

And that is what happens when they don’t actually know their deity.
It isn’t really the deity that is fake, but their understanding/knowledge of it.

@Dan~

Meditation, learning and direct magic are also improvements of the soul.

“Direct magic”??

[melonkali]

Thanks for this wonderful thread. I agree wholeheartedly about the importance of the spiritual part of life, and the spiritual unity of the human community, but in my real experience of life (which is nearly over – I’m pretty old), I’ve had to be satisfied with a mostly hard material struggle and only occasional small spiritual victories. I think it important to remind people that a spiritual life can mean living real lives in the real world, including education and the sciences, while trusting and following their own consciences, their better natures, their sense of divinity, their own spiritual instincts. But let them not coerce themselves into doing more than they are able, more than God gives them the strength or resources, or the spiritual impetus, to do. Religion can’t force people to love, but its abuse can create some pretty scarey, even dangerous, passive-aggressive zealots.

Spirituality by no means needs to be an all or nothing venture. We are not all either able or intended to commit our lives to deep spiritual quests and lives of spiritual exclusivity. In almost every life, spirituality is a small and cherished part of a complex bundle of issues and interests which are necessarily mixed together and juggled as well as one may. We tend to the mundane daily realities of life with consideration of the deeper spiritual truths of our being. It’s like the old Zen koan: “Before enlightenment, washing the laundry; after enlightenment, washing the laundry.”

Grasping the concept of loving all mankind has evaded me as much as abstractions in the new physics. I believe in both divinity and rational/empirical science–granting that I’m still trying to figure out how Swedenborg used calculus to prove the existence of divine providence in the natural world . But on a personal level, I know a few specific people whom I have come to care about deeply, whom I wholeheartedly serve without thought of recompense, delighting in their well-being, their healing, their joys, their hopes, their future happiness. While my faults, mistakes and sins are many, I think that I shall leave this life having loved and been loved, hopefully having done a little bit of good and not too much harm – my present state of material poverty evidences that I have given sacrificially, albeit not always wisely , but ever without regret.

The world, you see, neither has nor needs many saints or prophets. It has enough priests and gurus, though these too are of no great number. The vast majority of people struggle to survive or at least work to get by and provide for their loved ones. These are decent, caring peoples for whom spirituality is incorporated into their lives without being at the center of them. Speaking as one such common and decent human being, I can say that spirituality may be a cherished value and guiding voice, even when it is crowded around by many daily concerns. And I think that’s important to remember.

Rebecca Dickens

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@James S Saint

And that is what happens when they don’t actually know their deity.
It isn’t really the deity that is fake, but their understanding/knowledge of it.

I’m polytheistic. I think jesus is kindof like a deity now. He’s not fake, but allot of opinions about him are faulty.

@Dan~

“Direct magic”??

Direct magic is basically using psychic energies to manipulate or acquire other psychic and non psychic energies.

[statiktech]

@Dan~

I consider anything that improves the soul as spiritually valuable, and as a form of spirituality.

Making friends and being free from evil, virtueous, this lasts until the next living.
That is because the friend’s souls will remember us.
Trying to develop a relationship with a deity is too hard, in most cases.
There’s allot of fake relationships out there with deities. One way, nobody there on the other end of the prayers.

Meditation, learning and direct magic are also improvements of the soul.

Hmm, what is a ‘soul’?

[statiktech]

@James S Saint

@Dan~

Trying to develop a relationship with a deity is too hard, in most cases.

That is merely an issue of truly knowing the “deity”.
Very, very few people actually know their deities except by label and purported character.

@Dan~

One way, nobody there on the other end of the prayers.

And that is what happens when they don’t actually know their deity.
It isn’t really the deity that is fake, but their understanding/knowledge of it.

@Dan~

Meditation, learning and direct magic are also improvements of the soul.

“Direct magic”??

How does one come to “know” a deity?

[James_S_Saint]

@Dan~

Direct magic is basically using psychic energies to manipulate or acquire other psychic and non psychic energies.

I’m a psychologist. Does that count?

[Bob]

@James S Saint

Sorry that I didn’t note…

I was merely responding to your immediately prior post concerning that definition.
As far as your OP, I agree with almost all of it (else I would have been bitch’n more ).

Well, since we’re all contributing to the subject, I thought that the only thing that was missing for our friend was the dictionary definition …

I’m not really looking for agreement but instead the various aspects of spirituality that we experience, as diverse as they are. There seems to be one aspect that is coming through, which is the fact that spirit has to flow, and we all need to let go in order to experience what spirituality is. Religion needs to move from the letter to the spirit, transcending from law to love, and what is interesting to me is that we’re not talking about supersession, but the flow of happening, which follows the “riverbed” course, whatever it looks like, in order to flow and only stops when the flow is “damned” (excuse the pun!)

The various practises, whether meditation or yoga, or, as Tentative noted, gardening or anything else we do mindfully, can assist the flow. Essentially the many psychosomatic illnesses are a result of blocked systems and processes and we’ll probably find that mental illnesses have the same kind of cause … However our society tells us to hold on and hold tight, and don’t let go …

[James_S_Saint]

@Bob

There seems to be one aspect that is coming through, which is the fact that spirit has to flow, and we all need to let go in order to experience what spirituality is. Religion needs to move from the letter to the spirit, transcending from law to love, and what is interesting to me is that we’re not talking about supersession, but the flow of happening, which follows the “riverbed” course, whatever it looks like, in order to flow and only stops when the flow is “damned” (excuse the pun!)

The various practises, whether meditation or yoga, or, as Tentative noted, gardening or anything else we do mindfully, can assist the flow. Essentially the many psychosomatic illnesses are a result of blocked systems and processes and we’ll probably find that mental illnesses have the same kind of cause … However our society tells us to hold on and hold tight, and don’t let go …

Just a side note, “Ahdam” literally means “the damned up spirit”, meaning the spirit pooled together.

[zinnat]

Hi friends,

I consider anything that improves the soul as spiritually valuable, and as a form of spirituality.

I feel that this definition by Dan is very near to perfection as it covers almost the entire spread of spirituality.

Tentative said--
it is an unspoken understanding. How we react to our moments of heightened awareness is of duality, which in a perverse way, leads us away from our spiritual experiences. That which is ineffable is… ineffable. I’ve come to the conclusion that we don’t have spirituality, we ARE spirituality - but only if we let it go. Digging in the garden is just as spiritual as practicing meditation in a cloister. Spirituality is the sum of us and all about us. I would say more, but…

Bob said--
The unspoken understanding you speak of is a good expression, but I find spirituality also between the lines in all kinds of art, whether pictorial, sung, spoken or written, also in certain forms of architecture and interior design, in fact all over the place where, as you say, people let go and let it flow.I think that spirituality should be about us all, but the world is under pressure from people who can’t let go, who need predicted results, who need everything in writing and who can’t transcend the letter …

Friends, I must appreciate your thoughts.

But, having said this, we have to understand the difference between morality and spirituality. Those are not synonyms. More often than not they accompany each other but it is not a thumb rule. There may be cases that a person having very high moral values is not spiritual. On the other hand a wicked person can be spiritual too. Although, the chances are less but sometimes it happens.

So, this is to say that we should not confuse morality with spirituality. Do not get me wrong. By no means, I am trying to hold morality undesirable. Off course, we must bear high moral values in life. I am just highlighting this point because this misunderstanding tends to mitigate the status of spirituality. The general perception among the society is that mere morality is quite enough and there is no need to look for anything else and it is true to some extent. One needs not necessarily be a chef to be a good food taster.

Spirituality is a science for mind and thus, soul. We cannot approach our soul directly. Our mind is the gateway for that process. In normal circumstances, mind does not give permission to go through it. We require some certain types of mental practices to control it. These practices are found in all spiritual schools and religions by different names; yoga in Vedanta, samadhi in Buddhism, murakaba in Islam etc. These mental practices are the essential means for spirituality. Basically all of them are some sort of meditations. There may other versions of meditations formulated by lesser acknowledged schools.

So, this is to say that spirituality is all about practicing not reading. It demands a lot of time, commitment and patience too. It is neither matter of weeks nor months. The counting is done in years. One has to devote his full life to it. Spirituality is a very serious subject and should not be taken casually which is generally done now days. We act less about it and talk more.

Now comes the relation between spirituality and morality. Morality is just a by-product of the process of spirituality.

Let me explain-

When we take any kind of meditation seriously then our mind tends to concentrate at any particular object. After a certain point, a stage comes when the whole of mind involves itself in it. Mind becomes a single thought. If one is able to hold this state, then he can witness his thoughts flow, coming in and out, manifesting and vanishing. At this juncture, one is able understand how mind works and for the first time he is able to understand that he exists beyond his thoughts. This understanding enables him to distinguish him between him and his mind. As the time passes, this feeling becomes permanent and starts reflecting in behaviour and he becomes competent enough to control his mind in his day to day life. That is morality.

But the journey of spirituality does not end here. It is just the end of face-1. The journey of the unseen starts from here on but that is different subject altogether.

Bob said–That is an interesting take on spirituality and I thank you for it. I feel that you are right and about spirituality also being science, although I couldn’t back it up myself at the present. Perhaps I’ll come to understand you more …

Yes Bob. It is science and even very strict one. No cheating is allowed.Look what I said above. We cannot rely on borrowed means here. It does not matter at all what we know so far. It all becomes almost useless simply because we have to do it in our personal capacity even knowing what to do.

with love,
sanjay

[Kryptocyphe_9]

@Bob

Hi,

I still regard myself as a Christian, although I am anything but orthodox in the modern sense. I believe that spirituality is an aspect of life which arises from a right-brain dominance, just as the arts, empathy, creativity and intuition do. In fact, these things are often associated with religion – even music is supposed to be governed by the right side of the brain, despite it’s mathematical structure. Of course we have and use both sides of the brain, but those of us who have a right-side dominance tend towards some kind of spirituality – even if it isn’t regarded as religion.

The critics of people like me have a left-brain dominance and they find my comments imprecise and lacking in exactitude, they say my meaning is all nebulous and unable to be distinguished. They use their abilities in critical thinking and logic to argue with me and so effectively fail to see the point. Unless they use their underdeveloped abilities from the right-brain half, we will never come to common ground. Although, curiously, these people often use their right-brain abilities at will as a form of inspiration.

There are, of course those who are religious and yet use their left-brain side, and who find logic and reasoning quite usable for their religion, which is somehow a reckoning similar to math, and they agree that my kind of spirituality is nebulous and call it “New Age”. The problem is that they are regularly shown that their logic is fallible and, if their religion is at all spiritual, it must involve those nebulous aspects as well. But these people also use their right-brain abilities when it suits them.

My thesis is that we need both sides of our brains to be full human beings and although it may be that we can’t use both sides simultaneously, it is important to be aware that we have a dominance and that we do in fact alternate at will, even if we think that we are, for example, either very logical or very creative. This may be one reason why we tend to overlook our duality and get caught up in one side of the story, failing to acknowledge our “blind-spots”.

Having visited the parish I was once an Elder to because they were writing a history of the parish and I was part of it, I watched the members carefully, seeing their traits that were still visible through their illnesses, losses and old-age. Most of them were suffering, their words stumbled over their attempts to be humble, tears came spontaneously, deep sighs interrupted their statements and I had a very clear feeling that the project was causing them pain, even though they had intended to celebrate the 100-year history of the parish. In fact, I thought that here and there, people were present despite their convictions. The parish had become divided by an argument about one of the clergy who had been asked by the Elders, me being the spokesman at that time, to leave. As an aside, the Pastor is a friend of mine and now enjoys his calling in another Parish where his talents are fully employed.

As I watched the people struggle through the afternoon, I thought about how lacking these people were of the teaching of impermanence and how they struggled with life. What especially came to mind is that their belief in the cross of Christ challenged them daily, expecting them to struggle on until death and then find deliverance from their suffering. They failed to recognise the basic teaching of Buddha, which I also find in the Gospels, that suffering is caused by clinging to desire, and that there are methods which can help relieve the suffering. They failed to see that it was those things that they were clinging to which were becoming the source of pain.

This gave me more conviction than ever that spirituality is what people need in such cases, and that each culture has its own various traditions – more importantly, that what we need is to see that the teaching of some traditions are clearer in certain aspects than others, and that we need to appreciate that we can dip in to all traditions without “betraying” our own. We need the whole spectrum of human experience to cope with life.

Any thoughts?

Essentialism.

[Bob]

@zinnat13

Hi friends,

I consider anything that improves the soul as spiritually valuable, and as a form of spirituality.

I feel that this definition by Dan is very near to perfection as it covers almost the entire spread of spirituality.

Yes, Dan often surprises us with short but very pointed statements which really hit the mark.

Friends, I must appreciate your thoughts.

But, having said this, we have to understand the difference between morality and spirituality. Those are not synonyms. More often than not they accompany each other but it is not a thumb rule. There may be cases that a person having very high moral values is not spiritual. On the other hand a wicked person can be spiritual too. Although, the chances are less but sometimes it happens.

So, this is to say that we should not confuse morality with spirituality. Do not get me wrong. By no means, I am trying to hold morality undesirable. Off course, we must bear high moral values in life. I am just highlighting this point because this misunderstanding tends to mitigate the status of spirituality. The general perception among the society is that mere morality is quite enough and there is no need to look for anything else and it is true to some extent. One needs not necessarily be a chef to be a good food taster.

Sanjay, this is an interesting point that was seen when Japan went to war in WWII. Zen helped form “better” soldiers rather than bring about opposition to aggression. The discipline of these men and their consequential brutality shocked the mainly Judeo-Christian American opponent and was probably one reason why a so total revenge in the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima happened.

The combination of spirituality and morality almost as synonyms is widespread, and I also feel it in myself as an outcome of a Christian upbringing but also as the result of recognising our interconnectedness and interdependence. However, what I hear you saying is that “right conduct” (however we see that) may be the result of a heightened awareness and the flow of spirit, but it is not always predictable in its outcome.

Spirituality is a science for mind and thus, soul. We cannot approach our soul directly. Our mind is the gateway for that process. In normal circumstances, mind does not give permission to go through it. We require some certain types of mental practices to control it. These practices are found in all spiritual schools and religions by different names; yoga in Vedanta, samadhi in Buddhism, murakaba in Islam etc. These mental practices are the essential means for spirituality. Basically all of them are some sort of meditations. There may other versions of meditations formulated by lesser acknowledged schools.

So, this is to say that spirituality is all about practicing not reading. It demands a lot of time, commitment and patience too. It is neither matter of weeks nor months. The counting is done in years. One has to devote his full life to it. Spirituality is a very serious subject and should not be taken casually which is generally done now days. We act less about it and talk more.

I think that your last statement agrees with my OP, but that might not be clear enough. In the Christian environment I grew up in and in which I was active for a long time, we spoke a lot about spirituality and morality, but I had the feeling that we were failing to put the understanding we had seemingly gained into practise. On the contrary, when I left the group, it was divided and caught up in quarrels and insults which had me question the value of the spiritual teaching we had thought we had received. There was no “method” by which we learned to put teaching into practise.

It was only when I started looking at other traditions and took up MBSR (mindfulness-based-stress-reduction) that I came to realise that meditation could help me. Since then I have made breakthroughs in my own development and found with time that in Germany many parishes have taken to teaching meditation and contemplation. It is still regarded as a fringe development but I find it positive. The question I have is whether you think that this is all “New Age” and ineffective because it only borrows from other traditions, or whether you think there can be some good in it?

Now comes the relation between spirituality and morality. Morality is just a by-product of the process of spirituality.

Let me explain-

When we take any kind of meditation seriously then our mind tends to concentrate at any particular object. After a certain point, a stage comes when the whole of mind involves itself in it. Mind becomes a single thought. If one is able to hold this state, then he can witness his thoughts flow, coming in and out, manifesting and vanishing. At this juncture, one is able understand how mind works and for the first time he is able to understand that he exists beyond his thoughts. This understanding enables him to distinguish him between him and his mind. As the time passes, this feeling becomes permanent and starts reflecting in behaviour and he becomes competent enough to control his mind in his day to day life. That is morality.

But the journey of spirituality does not end here. It is just the end of face-1. The journey of the unseen starts from here on but that is different subject altogether.

I think that I am probably still at this point (if at all), but as I have said in the past, I really lack the instruction to go on. That is why it is all the more interesting to hear from you. Essentially I have probably only really reached the point of recognising the need …

Namaste

[Bob]

@Kryptocyphe_9

Essentialism.

Essentially, yes …

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@zinnat13

Hi friends,

I consider anything that improves the soul as spiritually valuable, and as a form of spirituality.

And that would be living a life. Substantial spiritualism is the totality of who we are.

Spiritualism is not some connection to a insubstantial immaterial something from places unknowable.

Spirit is the breath we breath, and all that comes from and radiates from that … which is life. Breathing is the flow of the spirit … in and out.

Spiritualism is about being. Doing is a byproduct of that.

[tentative]

V,

Spiritualism is about being. Doing is a byproduct of that.

I’ve made a simple statement here so many times that I think I’ve invented a cliche: “There is a difference between being and being as”. I think we’re on the same page…

On the issue of spirituality and morality: If we stop being as, and just be, then we let the imperfect constructs of what is spirituality or morality go at the same time - and then and only then, does genuine empathy and compassion become possible. This is the point at which spirituality and morality can appear as ‘right thinking’ and ‘right action’. It is getting by letting go.

People struggle with Jesus’ admonition to ‘love thy neighbor as thyself’, and struggle even more with ‘love thy enemies’. I think he was simply asking us to let go and our spirtual nature would carry us through. In the spirit, it wouldn’t even occur to us to not love indescriminately. It is only when we are being as (playing a role) that we struggle with ‘others’. Do we live in the spirit? One can hope, but we fail ourselves as often as not. The I-ME, that cursed ego, drives us away from from what we understand,but under-perform.

Spirituality is much like enlightenment. It is heightened awareness and understanding. There isn’t anything special about it even as so few find the path. I am reminded of the little observation: “Before enlightenment - chopping wood and carrying water. After enlightenment - chopping wood and carrying water.” And so too, our spirituality blooms as we let it go. Clinging to the words is suffering. Having understood, we are free to be, not just being as…

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@tentative

V,

Spiritualism is about being. Doing is a byproduct of that.

I’ve made a simple statement here so many times that I think I’ve invented a cliche: “There is a difference between being and being as”. I think we’re on the same page…

On the issue of spirituality and morality: If we stop being as, and just be, then we let the imperfect constructs of what is spirituality or morality go at the same time - and then and only then, does genuine empathy and compassion become possible. This is the point at which spirituality and morality can appear as ‘right thinking’ and ‘right action’. It is getting by letting go.

People struggle with Jesus’ admonition to ‘love thy neighbor as thyself’, and struggle even more with ‘love thy enemies’. I think he was simply asking us to let go and our spirtual nature would carry us through. In the spirit, it wouldn’t even occur to us to not love indescriminately. It is only when we are being as (playing a role) that we struggle with ‘others’. Do we live in the spirit? One can hope, but we fail ourselves as often as not. The I-ME, that cursed ego, drives us away from from what we understand,but under-perform.

Spirituality is much like enlightenment. It is heightened awareness and understanding. There isn’t anything special about it even as so few find the path. I am reminded of the little observation: “Before enlightenment - chopping wood and carrying water. After enlightenment - chopping wood and carrying water.” And so too, our spirituality blooms as we let it go. Clinging to the words is suffering. Having understood, we are free to be, not just being as…

Excellent reply tentative. Same page yes … Thanks …

[James_S_Saint]

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

@zinnat13

Hi friends,

I consider anything that improves the soul as spiritually valuable, and as a form of spirituality.

And that would be living a life. Substantial spiritualism is the totality of who we are.

Spiritualism is not some connection to a insubstantial immaterial something from places unknowable.

Spirit is the breath we breath, and all that comes from and radiates from that … which is life. Breathing is the flow of the spirit … in and out.

Spiritualism is about being. Doing is a byproduct of that.

uh-yup, yup.

[Typist]

@tentative

Do we live in the spirit? One can hope, but we fail ourselves as often as not. The I-ME, that cursed ego, drives us away from from what we understand, but under-perform.

As you may have read somewhere the “cursed ego” is made of thought, an inherently divisive information medium. That’s why the defining characteristic of the I-ME is division, the experience of all of reality being divided between “me” and “everything else”.

Within this divisive medium called thought, “spirituality” and “reality” are often divided from each other. Theists worship spirituality, while atheists celebrate reality, as if they were two different things, polar opposites.

The sense that “spirituality” and “reality” are two different things is an illusion created by the divisive nature of thought, just as the I-ME cursed ego is an illusion created by the divisive nature of thought.

Spirituality might be defined as direct contact with reality.

Not direct contact with thoughts about reality…

Not looking at mental images that attempt to represent reality…

Not the word reality, or a theory about reality…

But direct contact with the actual reality.

[felix_dakat]

@statiktech

@Dan~

I consider anything that improves the soul as spiritually valuable, and as a form of spirituality.

Making friends and being free from evil, virtueous, this lasts until the next living.
That is because the friend’s souls will remember us.
Trying to develop a relationship with a deity is too hard, in most cases.
There’s allot of fake relationships out there with deities. One way, nobody there on the other end of the prayers.

Meditation, learning and direct magic are also improvements of the soul.

Hmm, what is a ‘soul’?

This thread is flowing along swimmingly. Forgive me for this slight digression. I can’t be sure I know what Dan means by soul though I think I might. But, I think it was Nietzsche who said that the notion of the soul is derived from dreams in which we seem to appear and act independently of our physical body. Belief that the dream body is somehow real is a metaphysical proposition. But to maintain that there is no empirical basis for it is an error. Dreams are a common human experience. And now back to the larger discussion of spirituality.