We don’t experience death. We are aware now, therefore, it is possible to be aware. Once we die, given enough time, whatever ‘we’ are, will be aware once more. Given this, suicide is a gamble. A roll of the dice. What will come next?
A relevant question before placing the bet - Is this place so bad? Personally, I live in a safe country with access to all my needs. There’s opportunity, and direction. A family who I’ve grown to understand, respect and love. Technology that could keep me entertained for 10 lifetimes. Many mediums for expression.
I’ve often heard of people who wish to be somewhere else. Some say they wish they lived in the past where there were still new locations on Earth to discover. In this moment, we are citizens of the universe. We’ve still got plenty to discover. Some say they wish they lived in the future. Well, I can relate. It’s like saying, I wish I had a house without building it. You’d probably be homesick if you zapped to the future, and again, it’s a gamble. Who the fuck knows what the future’ll be like? Is it not wiser to create your own future? Want something - make it.
Why reject this place? You can, sure. If it’s all shit, sure, but it’s not. If you’re gonna accept it, might as well adjust, you or this, whatever’s easiest.
It’s easy to become comfortable with being alive on earth.
It’s hooked all kinds of souls.
I think it’s meant for some, but the place has no shortage of suffering.
I’ve also seen Wristcutter’s, but I’m talking about a parallel reality.
We are aware, therefore, awareness is a possible state of reality. Reality will continually alter it’s state, realizing new possibilities. Eventually, any given state, will be repeated. Time is infinite, therefore, all states of reality will be repeated infinitely.
We will follow the path of all possible states and in those states that determine our awareness, we will be aware. So, once we die, we will be dispersed, go on our path, and then eventually be aware once more in a state that permits it, probably without any awareness of the path that led to the present.
I don’t really get what you are arguing for or against. Are you arguing against suicide?
Suicide is normally a result of severe depression, which is called a mental illness for a good reason. I don’t think many (any?) people sit down in a perfectly rational frame of mind and think ‘I wonder what’s on the other side, I think I’ll kill myself to find out’.
However, if they did, yours would be a reasonably effective argument.
I’m not arguing for or against suicide here. I’m considering motivations for suicide, results and alternatives.
Soldiers who faced the prospect of being tortured to death as prisoners of war, often chose to commit suicide. This wasn’t an act of depression. They were protecting themselves, and information regarding the army they fought for.
They considered the future, and decided death would be preferable, and if these soldiers can be rational, others can be rational too. There are many circumstances that could motivate one to consider death as an alternative.
I define awareness as a product of life, so by my definition, it’s impossible to experience death.
@Stuartp523
That topic was a similar subject matter, but was a rant - me venting emotion, not on the same path as this. I’ve made many topics/posts regarding life and death that are far more relevant, but they’re still an aside, so I wont link to them.
Sure - people can take their own lives for rational reasons in circumstances such as these, but these motivations were not what was being discussed by the OP. The OP was clearly about people committing suicide when they are unhappy with the world:
Generally, people who commit suicide don’t want to die. They mostly aren’t curious about death, but scared. However, after people experience serious mental trauma, they sometimes see death as the best of two bad options. Suicide is escape.
Questioning the overall rationality of such motivations isn’t useful, because, like I said, it is not normally a rational act. Saying ‘you could just keep living and see if anything changes’ also isn’t going to be an effective line of thought for a person who has experienced a long term mental illness such as depression or severe anxiety.
Don’t you think that people who are suicidal ask this question? You have basically said that your life is fine. That’s great. But it’s not the things that you have that make your life fine, but the way you perceive these things. You are obviously a positive person, as am I, which makes it very difficult to understand how someone who is prone to depression sees the world.
As you point out, suicide is often irrational by nature. There are situations (such as the soldiers you mentioned) when it might be a rational act, but in most cases it is fundamentally irrational. When considering the ‘motivations for suicide’, I think that is one of the most important things to remember. I’m not really disagreeing with your OP here, indeed I am agreeing with it because I am saying that you are right to point out the irrationality of suicide. What I am saying though, is that the irrationality of suicide is probably reasonably obvious to anyone who’s in a sound state of mind, so discussion of the rationality of these motivations is unlikely to convincing or informative to anybody at all.
I was trying to speak more generally than depression. The opening paragraph is my opinion on what suicide leads to. The second paragraph is about current states vs possible states. Third paragraph is an expansion on a couple of alienating factors from the present. The end is a question of the present, and my opinion of it and what can be done with it.
It’s easy to view this topic with the one set of glasses, but again, I wasn’t intending to speak of a depressed individual.
I believe suicide can be rational, and that’s why I am analyzing it. If you concede conditions where suicide is rational, you’ve conceded a small window of usefulness.
I didn’t tell anyone to repeat their actions.
I do believe suicidal people can ask this question. Not all will, not even most, but some.
I didn’t comment on the odds or ratio of suicide being rational. Perhaps you mistook Stuartp for me. He commented on it.
I can’t imagine how you have come to believe that most people who commit suicide don’t ask themselves whether the world is a bad place or not. I just can’t get to grips with your thinking on this topic at all.
But who were you talking about? What are the motivations for suicide that you are analyzing here. I think this is what you have failed to state so far. All I know is that it isn’t a) depressed people or b) soldiers who take their own lives to preserve information.
Your OP strongly suggested that you thought most suicide was irrational. I recall your argument was that it was a ‘roll of the dice’, a needless gamble of sorts, as we do not know what will come next, whereas in your opinion the current world in which we live is not so bad a place.
I can’t really get a handle on this thread at all, first you argue suicide is generally not a rational choice to make, then you seem to say that actual it is rational and you never said it wasn’t rational. In the words of a famous British T.V. program: I’m out.
The use if “reasonable” rather then “rational” is more appropriate, because reasonableness implies an open ended opinion , versus “rational” which would most likely be seen as a closed nominal opinion.
The reasonableness of suicide does not necessary depend on a state of mind, someone in great pain for instance may wish to end their life to alliviate the pain.
“Rational” points to a direct assumption of an undebatable state of mind, directly, where the same person in great pain, would have to evaluate the state of mind as a sine qua non.
hmmmmm. Good distinction. I was trying to keep a distinction between a ‘rational act’ and an act ‘made in a rational state of mind’, but ‘reasonable’ is probably a much clearer way of making the distinction.
The question I posed is different. I ask whether the current state is worse for the individual compared to the imaginable possible alternate states that the individual might eventually inhabit.
Taken out of context, I can see the confusion.
Anyone considering suicide, no more specific than that.
I think when I was interjecting my personal circumstances I confused the issue. I do not believe most suicide is irrational. However, I do believe I gave the strong impression that my own suicide would be irrational.
I never said needless gamble, I said gamble. Sometimes a gamble is wise.
As for the world, it’s not so bad for me, circumstances are different for everyone.
Joe: your concept of awareness establishing an eternally recurrent awareness is very interesting. Do you feel there are gaps between succeeding awareness?
No, but it's intriguing, because I came upon this concept fairly recently. Would you mind expanding on it? Looks like an important part of the argument.
