whats wrong with death?

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
21

Celox,

I agree, and I might state it in the same way as well.

When you reflect on the nature of being dead, you recognize that it’s an essentially ‘neutral’ state, and realize that there is no reason to fear it. However, if you actually confronted a situation where your life is threatened, do you believe that you would be unafraid of dieing just because you have rationally accepted that such fear is irrational?

I agree with you that fear of death in people who believe that death is an end is due to “love for life”, or as Buddhists would say, attachment to life. However, I don’t think that overcoming such attachment is simply a matter of reasoning that once dead, nothing will matter.

I admit that I still fear death to an extent, even though rationally, I believe that there is no reason to fear it.

Iss

22

“Before I was born there was no Me.”

How do know you this? This discussion seems to be about something no one knows anything about. ???

Can you see my difficulties?
Homo Mysticus

23

oh, no, im not going to suggest that there is any real way to overcome fear of death by simply logicaly persuading yourself, fear of death is built into us, biologicly and through our culture. it may be possible, after a lifetime of talking youself into beliving it, to shake the fear. however, if you spend your whole life talking to yourself, you can convince yourself that you are the true jesus christ and yurr disciples are just jerks who made up stories about you. Essentialy, youd have to go though the process of going insane.

Al has a point that voids Lucretius’ theory, however, that merely makes the metaphor about the state of death being comprable to the state of never having been born, at least from our veiwpoint.

Homo mysticus, no-one knows anything about life after death,or life before birth, which is why, according to the best theory here we fear death. However, we do accept some things, which, though they may not have concrete proof, do seem logical. it seems to me that if no-one remembers living before being born, the point of whether we were or not is a null one until someone (who isnt deluding themselves) remembers otherwise

24

Maybe fear of death is a biological adaption. It was selected for, cause those who don’t fear death would live like daredevils and be more likely to die, leaving no one to carry on our species.

25

im not looking for biological reasons, as i said in the very first post, and even if i was, that is the most obvious awnser i could think of if i tried

26

:confused: Perhaps, most of us just fear the unknown?

27

:cry: No Shit. My father just died Friday, and the loss is huge. He was a great old guy with many wonderful stories regarding his life, Grandfather made homemade wine and beer during the Depression, and Dad’s WWII exploits like stealing a military landing barge during WWII and using it for exploits he never really did satisfactorily explain. Then there was the torpedo juice. :smiley: and crab dinners on the tin can in Plymouth. Most importantly, he would talk and play catch with me when my mother and older brother could not be bothered. Yes, I am still a weepy willow regarding my loss, but he does not hurt anymore. I am being selfish.

28

I agree with celox… as always… he is my philosophical twin… Yea, anyways, death might as well be a nuetrall state, simply because we know nothing about it. It could be infinitly pleasurable, infinitly painfull, could be absolutely nothing… the two infinities cancel out, all you are left with is nothing, nuetrallity. So only those that have something to lose fear death, since death can only rationally be considered nuetral (anything unknown is nuetral) Those who feel more pain than pleasure and dont have any hope for pleasure in the future, well they have been known to kill themselves. What I dont understand is why people fear the unknown. Theres nothing to fear unless you know what to fear… I dont think its a naturall fear of the unknown, but like I said before, they fear losing what they KNOW they have.

29

:astonished: Think regarding the pain your loved ones will feel if you kill yourself or someone else.

:sunglasses: Hell, I am not throwing stones. By the time I was 18 I had at least five speeding tickets, two topped the 100 mph mark. My parent’s insurance skyrocketed and made me pay for my own insurance. I learned.

I cringe everytime I think about my son on our So. Cal. mean streets. Thankfully, he is far more prudent than I ever was.

:smiley: Take Care of youself and learn that some fun is not worth the pain.

30

:sunglasses: You appear to be arrogant. All beliefs take a different view/opinion regarding death. Yours is one. Others have other opinions. So, What? Get off your high horse and try not to further estrange others from your practice/faith/belief.

:smiley: Do not misunderstand I am a proZionist individual. Unfortunately, your rhetoric may cause others to label you in an unfavorable light.

31

“However, we do accept some things, which, though they may not have concrete proof, do seem logical.”

Such as a God?

Can you asee my difficulties?
Homo Mysticus

32

silly.

Can you see my difficulties?
Homo Mysticus

33

Touche. (no, thats to cliche… well i cant think of anything more fitting so that stays.) however, there is evidence of a god, and there is evidence that contradicts that evidence. as far as i know, no-one has produced any evedence to suggest that we existed before we were born. actually i have forgotten the point of this argument, can you remind me?

34

Why is God or any god relevant in this topic? Remember the truths change within each methodology. And this is a Philosophy topic not theology.

35

I’m sorry to hear that aspacia. I too lost my father to the tyrant death, so I’ve been wrestling with this wretchedness for quite a while now.

I wanted to expand my my thought a little more though: the problem of death is not so much what it is–what comes after life–rather, it is our current helplessness and futility in the face of it. Our inablitity to overcome nature–at least for now–is what is so deplorable about death. Our complete subjugation to forces beyond our control–with our best awnser: to become a stoic; but such an awnser, does not truly satisfy our rage against this process.

I think our poets are best at capturing the sentiments.
Take Dylan Thomas’s poem, written as his father was dying, for example:

[i]Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light![/i]

36

In a sense, we KNOW nothing about anything with any certainty.
Available evidence overwhelmingly suggests that my existence as a personality is absolutely bound to my biological brain. Damage my brain or flood it with chemicals, and the nature of my personality or consciousness changes. Kill my brain and Al as a thinking, feeling being dies too. Logical reasoning and evidence therefor suggests that before my Brain there was no me.
You can make your point about any aspect of knowledge or understanding, including whether or not the sun will appear in the sky tomorrow (probably not as certain as me not existing before my brain, I suspect), but does it add anything to the debate?

37

I hope you have people there for you aspacia. Sounds like he had some tales to tell alright!

Underground Man- same goes for you on the people front. I still have my Dad, but have experienced death of someone close. Pure reason can be next to useless in the event. We are emotional beings and have a need to express our feelings.

You make a valid point about a sense of futility or helplessness in relation to death. People find comfort in a belief that they have some level of control over their own destiny and very many people have a real fear of change of almost any kind, which is rather unfortunate considering that this is the natural condition of all things.
Not sure that stoicism is the best answer, but maybe that’s a debate for another board :slight_smile:

38

You’re right, I would most likely have a sensation of fear in such a situation. Evolution have probably selected for people with fear of life-threatening situations, and I’m not beyond evolution or human emotions. Fear may even be useful in some situations. But my reasoning has gotten me to the point where I don’t much worry about death in my daily life, and has therefore made great imporovements for my quality of life in general.

Reasoning is a first step, and I don’t know what other steps there would be. Perhaps brainwashing :wink: But I agree, humans are not simply self-programming robots.

I can understand that.

39

Empathy, another human emotion that I have reasoned away. But it’s still there in my all-to-human mind. Controversial, I know, but I would prefer that emotion to go away should I some day consider suicide. In other situations, it can be a very useful and pleasurable human trait.

I don’t know if this is a response or an acknowledgement, I touched on essentially the same thing in the last sentence you quoted. Anyway, you take care as well :smiley:

40

"Thus, as far as the issue of death is concerned, life is life because of death.’

Plutarch

“The purpose of life is to end”

Homo Mysticus

Can you see my difficulties?
Homo Mysticus