I think the bitch about Death is the fact that it can’t be proven beyond all doubt.
I am a kind of make-shift atheist which is to say that I maintain a degree of agnosticism.
Because of this, I find it most disagreeable to live a mortal life thinking that I might be immortal. (another damned irony!) I would like to know for sure, if I were mortal, and I think I could live my life comfortably with the knowledge that when I died I ceased to exist.
The whole idea of immortality and/or spiritual beliefs upsets this whole scenario by throwing man into a type of infinite possibility where he has to live as if.
Skepticism eventually turns on itself.
This is a passionate absurdity, yet it is the redeeming feature of the human psyche.
Pascal’s wager. Its a wonderful thing. I’d take him to Vegas with me anyday.
You are using a narrow definition of the term pain. This is semantics. Language is for communication. It is clear that others are using the word to describe an aspect of the sensation of depression… clear I suspect to you also.
Pain can be described as a psychological condition, as well as a biological one, depending on the context. Some Depressives will describe life as a pain. Some people appear to have a higher biological pain threshold than others, and techniques, such as meditation, have been reported to be beneficial in terms of pain control, indicating a psychological link.
I have suffered from depression, even when there have been no sufficiently negative factors that would seem to justify my condition.
I realise that much of what I have described can be viewed as subjective, but as the mind is not directly observable, sometimes we have to take note of such data in order to increase our knowledge, while remaining aware of it’s fallibility.
people fear change, this is a very big change of state the bigest we know.
any way one who has a better understanding of life ,a deeper one, doesn’t fear death. this kind of person lives his life as full as he can and when comes the time from him to die he understands he’s moving on to somthing new so there is no fear of death as the end, but rather maybe feeling that somthing new is coming.
Why does someone who has a ‘deeper’ understanding of life understand that death is not the end. I would argue the complete opposite i.e. Anyone who understands the nature of life (biologically speaking rather than psychologically) must surely realise with reasonable certainty, that death IS indeed the end of life, including sentient life.
You make it sound like there actually “will” be a state for you to actually recognise?
Death is frightning because one fears “not being” and somehow missing out. Let’s imagine this, there is a new device that can completely wipe the memory of any relationship that you ever had with your mother, as much as you love your mother your memory of her will be wiped from you. As you are “here and now”; do you choose to have the operation or do u not? What is the real difference between you KNOWING your mother and u NOT KNOWING? Now most people here would say “no, i would choose not to have the op”. I on’t understand just why you would say no as there would be no difference, if your memory of your mother were wiped then you couldn’t possibly miss her etc so no matter how much you love her and how much u dont want to “forget” her, NOT KNOWING wll not effect you because your relationship with her will simply be non existent, “it” and everything else that happened between you two did not happen. Who knows why most people would still say “no”? The same applies to death because it is the same principle, why wouldn’t you have an operation that completely wipes “you”? What’s the difference between being/not being? Just as most people wouldn’t want to be wiped of the memory of their mother, most people too don’t want their memory completely wiped.
“You are using a narrow definition of the term pain.”
We can test your theory. Take a really big hammer and smack yourself on your the big toe of your right foot. Then imagine your left one being smacked. “Whch one hurts the most?”
Hey boys and girls,
It seems that most of what has been said, by some, here on the subject of death can be distilled to it lowest common denominator.
Life, of course, is preferable to death, as pleasure is preferable to pain. Death is however better than the bad life since the soul needs better care than the body.
So fearless, finally, are those who do not hope that they will continue to live, but take things as they come.
Perhaps a fear of ‘not-being’ is innate, a survival instinct, amplified by the knowledge that we WILL die.
You say that you do not understand why I would say no to not knowing my mother.
It is because I DO know her, and many of the associated feelings are pleasurable. She is also still living and would be hurt if I failed to acknowledge her. This might cease to matter to me if I had the op, but then I might have new concerns, i.e, who was my mother? So as you have given the choice, and I am quite happy with my memories, i fail to see the confusion.
Neither would I want my memory completely wiped, as I imagine the result would be far more stressful than oblivion/death, as I would still ‘be’, and in a very confused state, I imagine.
If we KNOW, and enjoy the KNOWING, then why would we CHOOSE not-knowing? That particular state will be upon us soon enough.
That would be a good analogy except:
1)i like my mother, and wouldent want to go to a neutral state of not remembering her.
2)I would have the question of who my mother was. i wouldent have the probolem of wondering how i died when im dead. either i would have the memory, be reborn remmebering nothing of my old life, or be dead and unable to wonder
Really, you think that I am a a stupid, vulgar, and insensitive person? Well, thank you. But I did read your post very carefully. I disagreed with almost evertything you said except,"I realise that much of what I have described can be viewed as subjective, ". All of what you said was in fact subjective. How could it be otherwise?
BTW, did you conduct the test? I think you will find it very illuminating.
Forget “mother” then and assume it is your “soul mate”. Why would it bother you? Why would the wonderful life you had together up until the op ever bother you? I’m sure you would still say “no” to the op but if one can up with “why” they would say no then i think it will answer the fear of death.
2)I would have the question of who my mother was. i wouldent have the probolem of wondering how i died when im dead. either i would have the memory, be reborn remmebering nothing of my old life, or be dead and unable to wonder
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Again, assume it is your “soul mate”, andassume that there is nobody that is going to tell you of the life you once had with this “soul mate”.
Forget “mother” then and assume it is your “soul mate”. Why would it bother you? Why would the wonderful life you had together up until the op ever bother you? I’m sure you would still say “no” to the op but if one can up with “why” they would say no then i think it will answer the fear of death.
Again, assume it is your “soul mate”, andassume that there is nobody that is going to tell you of the life you once had with this “soul mate”.
Ok Homo, if I have hurt your feelings then I apologise, but your responses give the impression that you either do not take time to reflect, or you do not understand.
your test would not be illuminating in any shape or form, whether I was able bodied, paralysed or without legs.
Answer a question, please… Do you accept that language is intended for communication, and that certain words do not have any inherent meaning in and of themselves, only the meaning that we give to them through constant usage, consensus or authority?
If you do, then stop pretending that the term ‘pain’ cannot be used to describe a psychological, as well as biological sensation.
If you don’t then please explain why instead of just throwing back a one-liner.
It wouldn’t bother me once I had had the op, but I would still say no for the same reason as before.
If I have life for a fleeting moment in the vast expanse of cosmic time, and on top of this, I have a soulmate (which I have incidently), then I would imagine that the alternative existence would be worse, and say no.
You are still giving the choice, you see.
There is no choice with death. I lose my mother, I lose my soulmate, and I know nothing about it, nor am I in any position to care, as there is no I.
Therefor fear of losing these things through death is irrational, I see that, but while I still have them, and they remain prescious to me, I can feel moments of sadness that it will be for such a short time.
You did not hurt my feelings. You are not capable of it. A projection on your part perhaps? Yes, "pain’ has and endless variety of nuances but it also has a fundamental meaning which is generally understood.
You are a “pain” in the neck… figuratively, of course.
figuratively, of course.