where christianity got it right

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

there is a common question (water cooler type of talk) that is proposed by people who casually delve into the area of the essence of god. the question they pose is this.

can god create a rock that he himself can’t lift?

this question tests upon the limitations of logic and the idea of infinite. now here is my experiment. if you posed this question to a group of christians and a group of muslims, i personally think this would be the result

the christians would really have a no really good or definite answer. the yes and no would most probably be split down the middle.
the muslims would actually have a more definite answer, which is yes. that would be the majority of opinions.

let me explain why i made the conjecture.

this thought experiment (which einstein was notorious for) which i created came indirectly from reading the lecture from Pope Benedict the XVI, entitled “Faith, Reason and the University—Memories and Reflections”. apparently this lecture he gave is the infamous one which caused so much insult to islamic scholars and leaders across the world. the link is found below.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Bened … ontroversy

taken from the link

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: “For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.” Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Muslim R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God’s will, we would even have to practice idolatry.[4]

now note what Khoury (or Arnaldez) says. the islamic god is NOT bound to reason or rationality. he transcends all and everything, even his own words and himself. in essence, he can do whatever he wants and MORE. he has absolutely NO limitations. so he can at will crate that rock. and then he can just raise his already infinite power to a higher infinite and then lift that rock.

in the christian doctrine, the most commonly accepted idea is that god is at least bound to his word, that he is still bound by rationality. it is said by some christian scholars that this christian viewpoint on god was what initially provided the driving force for people like galileo, newton, and copernicus to learn more about nature. they believed that to learn more about nature was what god wanted.

at this time, i can only say that not all faiths and not all humans are created equal. some faiths and humans are just better, at least in terms of human growth and progress. while islam may be harsh and cruel with draconian laws implemented to keep its power intact, the faith by itself would never stand.

christianity today is loosing its power and slowly dying away. i like to say that christianity will in the end die a cold death, by dying with a whimper.
islam on the other hand is growing, and mainly because of the large number of births in islamic families. islam like everything in this universe will die, but the way it will die is probably from a hot death. it will die with a bark and bite trying desperately to survive and hold on.

so in conclusion, christianity did get at least a few things right. i am of the opinion that the whole enlightenement and revolutions and renaissance which occurred in christian based europe wasn’t by just dumb luck or accident.

2

Islam is growing because Islam refuses to bend over and be anybody’s bitch.

Middle-Eastern cultures are less prone to acceptance then western culture by gross amounts. You insult someone here, and they’ll try to laugh it off or keep it to themself. A Muslim will probably punch you in the throat, or atleast glare at you evily to where you wish you hadn’t said it.

I do believe because of this, The Islamic countries are better then the western. They have less crime, more patriotism… Their government is decayed and unorganized, mostly composed of little militias, and yet they have more discipline and respect then we do. Why is that?

Christianity failed to uphold it’s duty to themselves and to God. A God of compassion and mercy is all well and good. But without rational aggression to put others in their place, that religion will not last very long. The only reason people her perpetuate Christianity “turn the other cheek” is it’s to their benefit.

Afterall, who wouldn’t want to be able to kick puppies and a Christian will just stand there like a pussy and say “I’ll pray for you”? We’ve taught our children and eachother that this is somehow right. That the guilty deserve protection and screw the innocent, screw what’s right. We’re a very backward and idiotic culture. I hate America, I won’t hesitate to point that out…

If a Muslim saw someone kicking a puppy, they’d repeatedly kick them and yell “you like kicking puppies?! YOU LIKE KICKING PUPPIES!”

I garantee you, even if some of those puppy kickers don’t stop. More would then if a Christian had been handling the situation.

TL;DR: Christians are weak. Muslims are strong.

3

let’s take the reply and take it to the extreme. muslims are indeed less tolerant than christians. they do enforce their fatihs and beliefs onto others in a far more aggresive way than any other large well accepted religion.

if i remember correctly, nietzsche himself said that the mohameddan religion is a better suited for the human kind than christianity. in his view, because of the nature of humanity, it requires iron strength and aggressive force to guide the destiny of humans, which islam can do because of the way it was original created and applied.

now, nietzsche made a good point and the reply also makes an interesting point which a lot of people think in the back of their minds but refuse to say in fear of being criticized on both sides and turned into a scapegoat for blame.

i must agree that islam is indeed stronger in its convictions and has a rather draconian system of implementation. however, islam as an ideology is still fluff and weaker than other forms of beliefs which can push the envelope of aggression and force. the clearest example is nihilism.

as i have said, there is an extremely unlikely possibility that god or heaven and hell could exist. now if we thought completely objectively about the human condition, the stance the rational human must take is that humans are bound to die, to die of extinction, bound to fail , and bound to lose no matter what they did. no matter how much the human race can accomplish, no matter how much the individual has achieved in their life, in the end, they are food for the worms. given enough time, the people who remember you will also be dead and you will be forgotten and all the acts and things that has occurred was for no reason and everything was a lost cause.

to continue, the humans are just a pathetic creature who lives through either the instinct of survival or the instinct of reproduction, and is only an evolved monkey who happens to be a little smarter than all the other species in the world through dumb luck. there is no such thing as love, but there is fear. there is no such thing as justice, but there is revenge. there is no such thing as equality, but differences. there is no such thing acceptance, but discrimination. xenophobia and racism would be justified through the social evolutionary theory standpoint so people should be allowed to kill and fight against anyone who doesn’t look like them.

rationally, the only logical thing for the calculating human is to end his life since the end result is a net lose not just for him and his race, but also for the planet and the universe they are on so why continue living? i mean, the living condition for humans then is to “struggle”.

the buddhism idea on “suffering” is wrong then. the entire premise then is that we suffer because we are always constantly at a state of “struggle”, a struggle between our own internal personal desires and will and the external dark impersonal world who wants to force the individual to do its bidding and extert its own influence. through the fighting over money, prestige, power, fame and other things, the individual can win at the least the battle for a short term to gain control and influence before they finally have to lose the war against life and the world since they can never conquer death.

the nihilist would be pro for all things to be destroyed, including themselves. they would want to tear down all the types and forms of institutions. they would prefer chaos and anarchy since that is the original state of existence. since the view is that there is no god to control their actions, then ANYTHING is permitted and nothing TRULY has any value so killing and destroying is not prohibited.

the nihilist who faces the muslim understands perfectly the way the muslim thinks and knows that because of the muslim’s faith, he has certain weakness which the nihilist can exploit. while the muslim may not be afraid of death, the nihilist actually welcomes death. where the muslim still fears pain and suffering from the earthly existence and especially from hell and judgement, the nihilist is not and has no fear. while the muslim holds mecca, the kaaba, mohammed, and the koran sacred, the nihilist doesn’t so they can deface, destroy, or smear the images of anything they desire. the nihilist would take a dump right on the kaaba if they felt like it. there is a lot less mental, psychological ,and social hang-ups for the niihilist than the muslim. they have less rules to control them and have less restraints to their actions. the true nihilist doesn’t fear punishment or violence since they understand their true nature.

islam is nice but it can not be a stand-alone ideology. most faiths can theoretically stand alone but not islam. because of the intolerant way at the core of islam, it will NEVER be at peace with itself. it is like the big bully in the school yard. he has terrorized every single other kid so the other kids leave the school yard and he is left to be by himself. when the bully has no one left to pick a fight with, he can’t just stop his actions. in his alone state, the bully must then carry on the struggle inward since he is still and will always be looking for conflict, an advesary since that is just the way he is at his core. he could change but he has not external force that is strong or direct enough to make him so he just stays is his state. now, maybe if given enough time this bully will eventually learn how to make peace with himself, but the moment some kid decides to come back into the yard, the bully would then be back at arms.

4

Respectable opinion Jim…

Where the fuck have you been? This website needs a young man like you around here. I’m getting tired of this fucking place.

5

Fluid,

The question you posed originally isn’t so much watercooler talk for people interest in religion as much as it is a question usually posed by atheists, to theists, as a means of making them second guess their beliefs… (that’s how i see it being used anyway)

My answer would be this: Yes god could create a rock he could not lift, but then it wouldn’t be god anymore…

As far as the structure of Islam nd Christianity goes, i can agree that Christianity is by nature more defensive than offensive, and that Islam is predominantly offensive…

So as i understand it you say that Christianity is right about being able to die without causing trouble, where Islam is wrong for likely coming to a violent end…

My first thought is that if we’re talking about the ends of religions, would it matter if the winning/losing side is just going to go to hell or heaven anyway?

what value does a silent ending have if they would be going to heaven? if anything Islam has it right for trying to save utterly as many people as possible before the end…

Secondly i would say that Christianity has been more violent than Islam thorough history (don’t quote me on that). Christianity swept through every continent lead by swordsman and ushered on by missionaries…

There is no such thing as Christianity without the people (i think you said something similar), so in reality Christianity is as Christianity does (as Christians do). Christianity has evolved into a less violent religion probably as the result of having already been completely successfully.

Personally i cannot fathom a god that would want us to kill a fellow human but religion probably knows more than i do, and in that light you had better pray to god that you were born in the right religion, because yours might very well be wrong.

Jim,

Christians and Muslims have a few fundamental differences in terms of how their societies are organised…

If a Christian see’s what they think is an enemy, they will try and convert them, thereby neutralizing the enemy.

If a Muslim see’s what they think is an enemy, they will try and kill them, thereby neutralizing enemy…

Both methods have their uses in different situations… The actual beliefs of a religion can determine how they will assure safety and future generations…

Christianity has the advantage of recruiting new people, Islam has the advantage of destroying enemies…

So in a certain sense, Christianity is weak and Islam is strong…

But what is your point? Are you trying to say that the most violent religion is the right one?