Why hate speech laws are dangerous

In a word, because it allows anyone to imprison you for something you say.

How does that work? Think of it this way: any controversial issue is going to have proponents in favor of it and detractors against it. What this amounts to is that the proponents are going to argue that encouraging it will improve the country/world, and detractors are going to argue that encouraging it will worsen the country/world. Let’s focus on the latter. If the promotion of some controversial issue leads to a worse country/world, you can imagine all sorts of harm it would cause–people becoming poorer, more sickness, more corruption, more killing, more abuse–the list goes on–and how bad it becomes can be as extreme as your imagination allows. All it takes from there is to link these horrible outcomes with those who wish to promote the policies you believe will cause such outcomes by accusing them of hate. Those who promote these policies must want these horrible outcomes. Therefore, they must hate the victims of such outcomes.

Some examples:

abortion: if abortions are made more permissible, then more unborn children will die. The death of unborn children is horrible. Therefore, pro-choice advocates must want unborn children to die. They obviously hate the unborn! Therefore, pro-choice speech is hate speech (and they should go to jail). On the other hand, if abortions are curtailed, then more women’s lives will be ruined, especially those who are raped, impregnated too young, or have medical complications that might kill them while delivering. We don’t want women’s lives to be ruined. Therefore, those who wish to prohibit abortions must hate women, and pro-life speech is hate speech (and they should go to jail).

gun control: if you defend the 2nd amendment, then you are advocating for more murders, school shootings, and gun violence. You must hate the victims of such violence. Therefore, 2nd amendment enthusiasts engage in hate speech, and should be arrested. On the other hand, if you speak out against the 2nd amendment, then you are advocating for a weaker populous with no ability to defend themselves against corrupt authoritarian governments. If the government decides to crack down on the masses (say like Tiananmen Square) the people will have no way to defend themselves. Therefore, 2nd amendment detractors must hate those who want to defend their freedom against tyrannical government. They are engaged in hate speech, and should be arrested.

immigration: when you argue for stricter immigration laws, you are taking away opportunities from those who wish only to enter the country to find a better life. Therefore, you must want to ruin their lives. So if you argue for stricter immigration laws, that’s hate speech, which is grounds for prosecuting you. On the other hand, if you argue for looser immigration laws, you are encouraging rapists, murderers, and terrorists to enter the country, which puts potential victims at risk. You must want harm to come to those potential victims. So if you argue for looser immigration laws, that’s hate speech, which is grounds for prosecuting you.

You see the pattern? You see how it can be applied to just about anything, as long as it’s controversial? You see why hate speech laws can be dangerous? All it takes is for someone to come up with a convincing enough argument for why some speech they don’t like counts as hate, and you can bring the law down on them.

To be fair, however, I will point out that I do see the benefit of having hate speech laws. If we can prevent harm being done to potential victims of those who listen to some hate speech and decide to put that speech into actions, society becomes a safer place to live. So my argument about the harms that hate speech laws can cause is not meant to be conclusive, but rather to give a more balanced take on the subject, to add to the cons of a list of pros and cons. Whether the pros still outweigh the cons or visa-versa is another matter. But I don’t believe I’ve ever come across an argument like the one I made above (outlining a specific formula by which any controversial speech can be labeled as “hate”) so I figured I’d post it.

Now, before you dismiss my argument on the grounds that “Oh, Gib, that will never happen. People don’t just label speech they don’t like as ‘hate speech’ and pursue legal action. It only happens when there is reasonable ground to use such a label and a real threat of danger to human life and wellbeing” I will tell you it’s already happening. Here’s just one example (skip ahead to 54:40):

If Coates can label Charlie Kirk’s life’s work as “hate”, anything can be labeled “hate”. And I’ve given the formula by which that can be done above.

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Yes, but I also think people should be able to hate openly too. It’s human nature and hate serves a good purpose. I know we are taught to avoid it at all costs, because of Christianity - but hate has its purpose.

Just like Destruction is just as important as Creation,

Just as light is just as important as darkness.

Hate is just as important as Love.

I draw the line when people give PERSONAL death threats to another person (so not being an advocate to genocide, which I’ve talked to many neo-nazis and others advocating for this. It is when the direction becomes personally at the person in the debate chamber as a way to take away free speech). Because that is just a way to take everyone’s right to free speech, and that disturbs the peace. And personal death threats disturb the immediate peace of the vicinity and stops verbal communication - an essential part of peaceful negotiation and expression.

In other words, yes - people should have the right to hate.

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so, people should be allowed to hate, but not to practice their hate, what they believe?

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As a person who works with the Law, I think we must make a distinction between two types of “hate speech”:

a) I don’t want immigrants in my country

b) kill all the immigrants

Or we could say

a) I hate all the Jews

b) kill all the Jews

The first examples are personal opinions which not all the best argumentation in the world can change. The second examples are open examples of incitement to crime.

I think that, when most people, most sane people, criticize hate speech that’s what they’re targeting. Not simple opinions or unpopular beliefs, but the spread of ideas that can potentially lead to mindless acts of violence.

How many guys in the USA kills a lot of random people based essentially on hate speech?

There’s a line to be drawn between legality (right to personal opinion) and illegality (incitement to crime).

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And no matter what, the law is never going to regulate hate. People will get it out one way or another, Max.

Whether it is on the dark web / the deep web like on the Tor network or Onion router

or online places like Gab.

It is up to us to use argumentation skills and logic to outdo their argumentation.

I’m not sure on the accuracy of the last meme, but Gab has all kinds of memes.

In other words, the most important thing should be to allow people to express their hate, trust me it’s better that way. End up like Syria with a bunch of terrorism because the government is too strict on speech.

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You could more easily build a racket, all alone, to travel to Mars than to made up their minds about what they don’t want to believe.

But what you should understand, is with argumentation, a consensus among yourself or any people can use it to justify a course of action.

That is what peaceful argumentation is for.

The first meme of the picture is a badger with the sign of Islam - but the man who did the killing is a native born Brit - his parents are from Rwanda, A CHRISTIAN NATION. not a muslim nation. These people… :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes::grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

I had a fun time on here (on Gab).

But you really have to have thick skin. The website is only for 18+, and if your not Christian, get prepared for a lot of hate.

No pornography is allowed on there - so you’re fine on that. It’s because it is a Christian website -

The second picture is CEO Andrew Torba

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@gib

I agree with you as a fellow free speech absolutist, one of the few things I agree with conservatives on. The only people who ever try to ban all free speech are hypocritical liberals as usual because they view themselves as the prime monopolizers or arbiters of what people can and cannot talk about. It’s always them trying to institute censorship for everybody else. :clown_face:

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@Maxx

Make hate illegal or criminal you just make it more popular. For reference, see war on drugs the last couple of decades. :clown_face:

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Hate speech laws exist in many countries.

None of them with so many examples of hate crimes as the USA.

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But see, then you have to define crime?

Who determines whether it is a crime or not (whatever crime in question)? What interests does this person have?

Do you want to talk about blasphemy laws? Because I love my freedom to blaspheme. What do blasphemy laws usually lead too? They cover what?

I should show you when I was on Reddit. It was crazy the Finns in Finland said they were scared to speak out against Islam because they didn’t want terrorists to come slice their throats. And he was serious!

And Finland has blasphemy laws for that reason, it’s laughable!

@Maxx

Well, you’re not allowed to report the race or ethnicity of criminals in most of Europe. Hate crimes goes on of course in Europe, but hate crimes against white people in Europe you can go to jail just talking about.

(Because hate crimes against white people supposedly doesn’t exist just as racism against white people doesn’t exist either, political liberalism 101.)

You know, even over here in the United States we here about all the bullshit that goes on over there in Europe all the time. Your pretend European political enlightenment by comparison is a farce. :clown_face:

So I think most of us can understand why they are dangerous. Hate speech laws are usually subjective, and too vague to be known with certainty on when to instigate them and when not to.

It also stifles challenging existing norms and the majority, even if that norm / the majority is not good.

It can persecute minority viewpoints, or it can persecute majority viewpoints with little logical reason behind it other than it is not popular / people do not like it. This is much of the time used to justify ‘disturbing the peace’ when in fact it may need to disturb the peace in so far as it doesn’t lead to personal murder.

Lol, what is a crime?

Murder is a crime. Rape is a crime. Violence against other people’s bodies and property is a crime.

Or can you publicly advocate for the murder of a person in the USA?

Homosexuality is a crime in many countries.

A woman not wearing a headscarf is a crime in a few countries.

Blasphemy is a crime in many countries.

Women riding tractors is a crime in Russia.

Hmm, crime is it so easy to know what a crime is?

There are unacceptable things in all countries.

In the USA you can’t threaten the life of the President in any way.

There must be, necessarily, a limit to free speech.

How far do these limits go?

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Give some concrete examples of this, I mean, concrete.

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@Maxx

:clown_face:

Haven’t I said it?

You can say whatever you want.

You shouldn’t be free to threaten the life of a person or instigate violence against them.