why im tired of free will

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

I will attempt to fully explain why free will is a failure, with a series of points.

#1 Although we cannot perfectly predict human behavior, there are some things that are
very predictable with people, which shows in and of itself that the person’s behavior is
being determined and is thus predictable like any determination is.

#2 Choice does not validate or proove free will in any way. Choice only prooves
that we have preferances. Preferances themselves are forms of determination,
and are predictable.

#3 Society requires and runs upon “free will” politically, as it has become integrated
within the system of cultural morality and the “justice” system. Therefor society is
biased towards the philosophical issue. Judges are typically meant to be unbiased
and of a third party that was not involved with a crime. Likewise for society’s
judgement to be professional, it would require a freedom from bias, which it does not have.

#4 Politions, culture and religion are at least partially responsible for human corruption,
but they are the ones whom place the blame on the people instead of blaming themselves.
This is an underhanded motive behind the teaching of “free will”.

#5 Unpredictable behavior does not proove freedom. Freedom is not based on the act
of being unpredictable. Freedom in this metaphysical case means self causition.
Random will isn’t free will.

#6 The idea of not being able to punish someone whom has done a bad thing
frightens people. They feel like they don’t know what to do or who to blame.
Free will gives a false sense of security, a false sense of justice, a false
sense of true causition, and a false sense of personal empowerment.

#7 Bad behavior is based often upon religion, propaganda, bad parenting, etc.
This is a disease and it’s only going to stop when we stop bad propagation and contamination of the mind.
An example would be how “evil” the germans became under a certain nazi brainwashing.

“Free will” doctrin is a lie meant to shift blame away from the people whom control and influence us.

[xzc]

Free will is based on notion that man is a an alien and independent agent in this universe; not a product or part of it. It’s also just an absurd and non-nonsensical - though nonetheless instrumental - vehicle for guilt.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@xzc

Free will is based on notion that man is a an alien and independent agent in this universe; not a product or part of it. It’s also just an absurd and non-nonsensical - though nonetheless instrumental - vehicle for guilt.

But the people whom control our life don’t want us to feel like we are being controlled.
They are not smart enough to completely control us, so they just settle for influence,
and they try to be influenctial. A perfect example of mind control is an avengelical church.
Every person is trained to try to persuade people and influence everyone’s thinking.
That’s influence. They can’t control us completely but they can try to influence us.

[xzc]

All communication is, in part, a way of influencing other people, dude. You say things so you can get a specific kind of reaction. Anything at all you say is an effort to alter the mental states of another.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@xzc

All communication is, in part, a way of influencing other people, dude. You say things so you can get a specific kind of reaction. Anything at all you say is an effort to alter the mental states of another.

Influence isn’t always bad. I’m saying it’s misused.
But the group mind was meant to facilitate survival.

[xzc]

So you think the people who control our life are aware that free will doesn’t exist?

[Moreno]

@Dan~

“Free will” doctrin is a lie meant to shift blame away from the people whom control and influence us.

Oh, you had to say that.

But aside from that serious joke.

The concept of ‘meant’, intention itself, falls away in determinism. I don’t know what that word means if things are determined.

The people who ‘control and influence us’ are merely the domino behind us in the line of causes.

[Only_Humean]

@xzc

So you think the people who control our life are aware that free will doesn’t exist?

Perhaps they choose to ignore it.

[Moreno]

@xzc

So you think the people who control our life are aware that free will doesn’t exist?

Wouldn’t really matter if they did, I mean if Dan is correct, what choice to they have in their actions or beliefs.

It’s like asking if the cloud was aware it was raining on your important picnic.

[xzc]

@Only_Humean

@xzc

So you think the people who control our life are aware that free will doesn’t exist?

Perhaps they choose to ignore it.

On a psychological level, do you think accepting determinism, the belief that your thoughts, beliefs, tastes, values, choices pass through, but don’t originate in you would cause someone to abandon their goals?

It would mean seeing yourself as a tool…a universal plaything.

[felix_dakat]

#1 Although we cannot perfectly predict human behavior, there are some things that are
very predictable with people, which shows in and of itself that the person’s behavior is
being determined and is thus predictable like any determination is.

So freedom if we have it is not absolute or total.

#2 Choice does not validate or proove free will in any way. Choice only prooves
that we have preferances. Preferances themselves are forms of determination,
and are predictable.

I haven’t seen this argument before. We still seem to have a choice of whether we act on our preferences or not.

#3 Society requires and runs upon “free will” politically, as it has become integrated
within the system of cultural morality and the “justice” system. Therefor society is
biased towards the philosophical issue. Judges are typically meant to be unbiased
and of a third party that was not involved with a crime. Likewise for society’s
judgement to be professional, it would require a freedom from bias, which it does not have.

True, freedom does have it’s payoffs for society. So it is in the interest of society that people believe they are free even if they really are not. It doesn’t follow from this fact that we are not free though.

#4 Politions, culture and religion are at least partially responsible for human corruption,
but they are the ones whom place the blame on the people instead of blaming themselves.
This is an underhanded motive behind the teaching of “free will”.

Same as #3.

#5 Unpredictable behavior does not proove freedom. Freedom is not based on the act
of being unpredictable. Freedom in this metaphysical case means self causition.
Random will isn’t free will.

Right. Randomness doesn’t necessarily entail choice.

#6 The idea of not being able to punish someone whom has done a bad thing
frightens people. They feel like they don’t know what to do or who to blame.
Free will gives a false sense of security, a false sense of justice, a false
sense of true causition, and a false sense of personal empowerment.

The first two arguments are true. The third simply asserts what you are trying to prove.

#7 Bad behavior is based often upon religion, propaganda, bad parenting, etc.
This is a disease and it’s only going to stop when we stop bad propagation and contamination of the mind.
An example would be how “evil” the germans became under a certain nazi brainwashing.

We won’t know if this is true until religion, propaganda, bad parenting are stopped so we can observe if bad behavior stops in the absence of these conditions.

“Free will” doctrin is a lie meant to shift blame away from the people whom control and influence us.

But wait. If free will doesn’t exist than the behavior of people who “control and influence” us is just as determined as ours is. If determinism rules all, people who appear to control and influence are not to blame any more than we are.

[felix_dakat]

The concept of ‘meant’, intention itself, falls away in determinism. I don’t know what that word means if things are determined.

Right. But that’s possible. If free will is an illusion, meaning could be an illusion too.

The people who ‘control and influence us’ are merely the domino behind us in the line of causes.

Right. I made that argument too.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@Moreno

@xzc

So you think the people who control our life are aware that free will doesn’t exist?

Wouldn’t really matter if they did, I mean if Dan is correct, what choice to they have in their actions or beliefs.

It’s like asking if the cloud was aware it was raining on your important picnic.

My position is that choice does exist but free will does not.
“Free will” is corrupt, but choice is natural and common.

[Fixed_Cross]

@Dan~

I will attempt to fully explain why free will is a failure, with a series of points.

#1 Although we cannot perfectly predict human behavior, there are some things that are
very predictable with people, which shows in and of itself that the person’s behavior is
being determined and is thus predictable like any determination is.

It might also show that everybody will freely, but that it’s all comparable, because there’s limited amount of different resources and desirables to obtain.

#2 Choice does not validate or proove free will in any way. Choice only prooves
that we have preferances. Preferances themselves are forms of determination,
and are predictable.

Quite!!

#3 Society requires and runs upon “free will” politically, as it has become integrated
within the system of cultural morality and the “justice” system. Therefor society is
biased towards the philosophical issue. Judges are typically meant to be unbiased
and of a third party that was not involved with a crime. Likewise for society’s
judgement to be professional, it would require a freedom from bias, which it does not have.

Justice serves order… it needs no free will - or if so – how?

#4 Politions, culture and religion are at least partially responsible for human corruption,
but they are the ones whom place the blame on the people instead of blaming themselves.
This is an underhanded motive behind the teaching of “free will”.

Why would they blame themselves for willing to power? That is not natural to this will, it becomes subversive to itself and slavish, nasty insidious.

#5 Unpredictable behavior does not proove freedom. Freedom is not based on the act
of being unpredictable. Freedom in this metaphysical case means self causition.
Random will isn’t free will.

What is freedom?

#6 The idea of not being able to punish someone whom has done a bad thing
frightens people. They feel like they don’t know what to do or who to blame.
Free will gives a false sense of security, a false sense of justice, a false
sense of true causition, and a false sense of personal empowerment.

Interesting… again, what is freedom?
and about will… - from what would will have to be free to be free will?
What is it in the first place? A property of an organism. It seems bound to that organism.

#7 Bad behavior is based often upon religion, propaganda, bad parenting, etc.
This is a disease and it’s only going to stop when we stop bad propagation and contamination of the mind.
An example would be how “evil” the germans became under a certain nazi brainwashing.

I think we should evolve to a stage where we’re no longer susceptible as much. Nobody is going to stop “them” (changing tyrannies through time) from propagating bullshit, ever. Information is power, so people are going to abuse it. Sifting through it is I guess, thinking.

“Free will” doctrin is a lie meant to shift blame away from the people whom control and influence us.

Say this is right, then what do you propose we get in the place? “unfree will” will be a hard sell. What defines us? Is it not our choices?
So what if they’re scientifically determined? Who cares?
Or do you think we have more power over tyrannies if we abolish the concept?

Please if you have the conception ready share it I see no light on your path.

[Moreno]

@Dan~

My position is that choice does exist but free will does not.
“Free will” is corrupt, but choice is natural and common.

But the powerful would be utterly compelled both in terms of their awareness and choices. IOW ‘they’ aren’t really doing anything, any more than a domino can be said to choose which direction it falls. The domino’s preference is utter and so it the preference of the powerful.

Back in the big bang their preferences and choices were already inevitable. As were ours.

Why I mention this is we are not under their control, so much as everything is unfolding as it must

in a determinist system.

[statiktech]

The concept of ‘meant’, intention itself, falls away in determinism. I don’t know what that word means if things are determined.

The term is so presumptuous and nebulous as to be meaningless as is. We fictionalize motives into this idea of ‘intent’, then make people individually accountable for their every inclination. Intent is predictable, too.

[Moreno]

@statiktech

The concept of ‘meant’, intention itself, falls away in determinism. I don’t know what that word means if things are determined.

The term is so presumptuous and nebulous as to be meaningless as is. We fictionalize motives into this idea of ‘intent’, then make people individually accountable for their every inclination. Intent is predictable, too.

More or less what I meant.

Though, in reference to the bolded portion above, you must think we can’t help but fictionalize motives. IOW if one truly believes in determinism this can’t be said as a complaint.

[finishedman]

Man is not able to act, because he is all the time thinking in terms of the freedom to act: “How can I be free to act?” That’s the concern, the freedom. But there is no acting that freedom. The demand for the freedom to act is preventing the action, which is neither social nor anti-social.

When you accept yourself and your situation, you are not in conflict with the society any more. You will not be any use to the society. On the other hand, if you become a threat to the society, the society will liquidate you.

You are a neurotic because you want two things at the same time. It is that which has created this problem for you. Wanting two things at the same time. You want to bring about a change in yourself. The change is the demand of the society, so that you can become a part of that and maintain the continuity of the social structure without any change. The second thing is, you want change.This is the conflict.

[TheJoker]

@xzc

Free will is based on notion that man is a an alien and independent agent in this universe; not a product or part of it. It’s also just an absurd and non-nonsensical - though nonetheless instrumental - vehicle for guilt.

Well said.

Dan:#1 Although we cannot perfectly predict human behavior, there are some things that are
very predictable with people, which shows in and of itself that the person’s behavior is
being determined and is thus predictable like any determination is.

#2 Choice does not validate or proove free will in any way. Choice only prooves
that we have preferances. Preferances themselves are forms of determination,
and are predictable.

#3 Society requires and runs upon “free will” politically, as it has become integrated
within the system of cultural morality and the “justice” system. Therefor society is
biased towards the philosophical issue. Judges are typically meant to be unbiased
and of a third party that was not involved with a crime. Likewise for society’s
judgement to be professional, it would require a freedom from bias, which it does not have.

#4 Politions, culture and religion are at least partially responsible for human corruption,
but they are the ones whom place the blame on the people instead of blaming themselves.
This is an underhanded motive behind the teaching of “free will”.

#5 Unpredictable behavior does not proove freedom. Freedom is not based on the act
of being unpredictable. Freedom in this metaphysical case means self causition.
Random will isn’t free will.

#6 The idea of not being able to punish someone whom has done a bad thing
frightens people. They feel like they don’t know what to do or who to blame.
Free will gives a false sense of security, a false sense of justice, a false
sense of true causition, and a false sense of personal empowerment.

#7 Bad behavior is based often upon religion, propaganda, bad parenting, etc.
This is a disease and it’s only going to stop when we stop bad propagation and contamination of the mind.
An example would be how “evil” the germans became under a certain nazi brainwashing.

“Free will” doctrin is a lie meant to shift blame away from the people whom control and influence us.

Dan: But the people whom control our life don’t want us to feel like we are being controlled.
They are not smart enough to completely control us, so they just settle for influence,
and they try to be influenctial. A perfect example of mind control is an avengelical church.
Every person is trained to try to persuade people and influence everyone’s thinking.
That’s influence. They can’t control us completely but they can try to influence us.

Well said also Dan.

The church has been done away with when it concerns the advent of the scientific revolution. The power of the church is now minimal.

What has replaced the church in functioning that controlling influence you speak of is that of the media, social institutions, and government in it’s place.

The new priests of this century are politicians, media moguls, psychologists, psychiatrists, professors, and social organization planners with the government acting as the newly constructed temple. Organized government has replaced the old temple priesthood. It has taken over and become the newer one in it’s place.

Government and functioning society has become the new godhead. Social order has become the newer highest faith.

Anything that goes against the functioning of the new godhead in both government or society has become the newer highest sin.

The virtuous man and woman is obedient to the godhead as functioning complacent civilian domesticated citizen members.

The heretical man and woman are disobedient or noncomplacent to the godhead in which case they are constantly punished through a variety of ways for their insubordinations. Their sporadic wild feral behavior seen as mental illness. Their uncontrollable passions, instincts, and unmodified thought patterns seen as being immoral or unethical.

Science is merely a aid and appendage of this newly defined godhead. Technology nothing more than it’s yielded weapon to subject the masses.

The military and police when it concerns the godhead of government or society are the zealous organized executioners and assasins.

Welcome to the brave new world! It’s global now under a variety of cultures, languages, and races. You pick what language you wish to be a controlled subject under global citizen.

Please remember anti social behavior will not be tolerated. Anti social behavior is a punishable offence.

[Moreno]

@felix dakat

Right. But that’s possible. If free will is an illusion, meaning could be an illusion too.

I think there is a bizarre irony in professing determism as better than a belief in free will, and especially on moral grounds. There are no morals in a determined universe. Stuff just happens. You have no enemies, except perhaps the universe machine, but certainly no other humans. They are just rocks falling down in a hillside avalanche just like you.

In fact I think professing a belief in determism in any rational form is ironic, since once you believe in determinism you should have extreme doubt you can tell you are making any sense at all.