Zeno's Paradox, maybe not a paradox.

If you know me of course i would argue this as i am one to think that all is one just as Zeno, but what i feel people don’t see is why he really thought this and how that recognition lead him to his thought.

Check this out to see the argument and counter argument accepted to show it is paradoxical…: mathacademy.com/pr/prime/art … /index.asp

What i would say is this, The math may work out, or so we think,as no-one has actually added up an infinite series, but i would agree it would anyways.
But then maybe it works because we are taking infinite steps?

how does this relate to “the one” existing…rather than “the many”

Because the one is infinite, we are really just a part of it…not separate at all, and as a part of infinity we ourselves are infinite…just less big, oddly there can be different sized infinites…

I would say finite is a false concept that arise from our ability to recognize infinites with bounds by means of perception…

But then i don’t think any one will agree with this, it is to abstract, from what is the norm of thought.

" If there are many, they must be as many as they are and neither more nor less than that. But if they are as many as they are, they would be limited. If there are many, things that are are unlimited. For there are always others between the things that are, and again others between those, and so the things that are are unlimited. (Simplicius(a) On Aristotle’s Physics, 140.29)

This first argument, given in Zeno’s words according to Simplicius, attempts to show that there could not be more than one thing, on pain of contradiction. Assume then that there are many things; he argues that they are both ‘limited’ and ‘unlimited’, a contradiction. First, he says that any collection must contain some definite number of things, neither more nor fewer. But if you have a definite number of things, he concludes, you must have a finite—‘limited’—number of them; he implicitly assumes that to have infinitely many things is to have an ‘indefinite’ number of them. But second, imagine any collection of ‘many’ things arranged in space—imagine them lined up in one dimension for definiteness. Between any two of them, he claims, is a third; and in between these three elements another two; and another four between these five; and so on without end. Therefore the limited collection is also ‘unlimited’, which is a contradiction, and hence our original assumption must be false: there are not many things after all. At least, so Zeno’s reasoning runs.

But why are there ‘always others between the things that are’? (In modern terminology, why must objects always be ‘densely’ ordered?) Suppose that I had imagined a collection of ten apples lined up; then there is indeed another apple between the sixth and eighth, but there is none between the seventh and eighth!"

No I would say he was trying to say that between two things there is space and between that thing and that space is space, and between that and so on.
Again it makes sense i think of it this way, if infinites don’t exist then why is there an infinite number of directions to go from any given point?

Things are finite and infinite, in so far as really they are indeterminate, and ultimately it comes down to perception as to what they are, and of course considering things to be finite we think that the use of numbers under the perception that numbers are finite proves that finite thing exist…But 1 is not a finite thing it is itself an indeterminate, as I can say both 1 finite and 1 infinite, it is a instance that requires distinction of actuality, as it is otherwise indeterminate, and thus requires perception.

One can think of things like this, consider a line segment, I would say it could still be infinite, we say by definition that a finite thing is that which has a bound, but how can we say that by definition, maybe there really can be a bounded infinite thing, in so far as it is not “ultimately” “objectively” bounded it is just perceived as having a bound. Rather we have the capacity to consider it within our vision and based on the assumption that our vision is a finite thing we assume that anything within it is finite, but again how can we know our vision is finite as we do not see it within a bound, rather we see that there are not all things seen at once, but agian we don’t know that it would be possible to really see all things at once even if we could have infinite sight. if you walk an infinite distance on the number line there can still be a number after that, inf-inf is considered unknown that is the same mathematical issue… but anyways might point is that if you take a line segment, there are an infinite number of points within it. It is composed of infinite things so how can it be less then infinite, that proposes that infinite can be finite in so far as a finite number of things can be seen as a singular thing…

By definition, you can’t take “infinite steps”.
An infinite distance has no point to which to step.
There is no “infinity”.

One can’t take an infinite number of steps , so how can an infinite number of continually smaller steps be taken?

Let me state it another way;
A single infinite step cannot be taken.
So how can you take more than one?

But if there can be an infinite number of steps in between of smaller and smaller steps, wouldn’t the act of going from the beginning point there to the end be an infinite step?

If something is an infinite distance away then it has at least one bound, that bound being the starting point of here.

Emm… no.
It would be a single finite step that COULD BE envisioned as an infinite NUMBER of parts.
But realize that as the number of partitions increases, the size of each partition decreases.
So no matter how many partitions you choose to envision, the end result is the same.
Infinity times infinitesimal = finite (basic calculus).

Yet there are still an infinite number of finite things to make up a finite thing?

and that seemed more directed to the previous statement. How is something infinitely distant not bound at the stating point?
How else do we have concepts of things like Rays?

I see most often that (inf)*1=(inf) not a finite number.
Also not all regressive additions add to a finite number
for example I believe 1/n in increments of n+1 do not add to a finite number
i.e. (1/n)+(1/(n+1))+(1/(n+2))+(1/(n+3))+(1/(n+4))+(1/(n+5))+(1/(n+6))+(1/(n+7))+…

i think the maximum rate of decrease possible is 50% otherwise it adds to infinity (not certain of that though) And that would only be considering constant reduction…if there is an alteration the average would probably have to be less than 50% but it would be indeterminable…i don’t think we deal with randomized reduction sums in most math though…

That depends entirely on what you choose to call a “thing”.

I don’t see what the beginning point has to do with any of this… …? :-s

I don’t see what any of that has to do with any of what I said either. :-s

An “infinitesimal” is not merely a small number, but an infinitely small number.

How can thee be the infinitely small, and not the infinitely big?

There can be an infinite number of infinitesimal things.

But how can there bee an infinite number of the infinitely small, or how can there be an infinitely small period, and there not also be an infinitely big?
Is that not like saying there can be a finger nail but there can be an up but there cannot be a down…
In fact I think that is the problem here you want to see everything as ups, and you can in actuality, if my body is oriented oppositely from up then when I point my hand up from my body i am still pointing at what is relatively up, as such it is logical to some or could be that everything is a matter of up it just depends on how you are oriented…rather we see things as a matter of up and down…Perhaps this can be illustrated as the difference (literally too) of -10 and +10 such is basically the same as between 0 and 20…it is a mater of perspective and perception…

Who said there isn’t an infinitely big?
I merely said that “infinity” doesn’t exist, even as a valid concept. That doesn’t mean that a proposed arithmetic problem can’t result in an infinitely big number. The point is that such a number cannot exist because it is defined to not be anything that can exist. Directions are also defined to be an issue of infinity. The direction heads out toward infinity, but it can never get there because infinity (the place) doesn’t exist.

Abstract, tabbed is an excerpt from an early paper of mine on the topic of this very argument. I was briefly interested in Zeno’s paradoxes at the time this paper was written (in my first year of school); but, alas: it’s been so long. The writing in it is sloppy, but I believe the argumentation to hold up adequately. I invite you to pick it apart. It’s been at least four years since I’ve concerned myself with Zeno, so hopefully this proves productive.

[tab]Zeno argues against the notion that many things exist. He intended for this argument to prove that only one thing could exist, and thereby discredit the widely held belief in plurality. In the following paragraphs we will examine this argument by analyzing its individual premises. Then, I will explain why I disagree with the effectiveness of the argument against plurality based on an inherent flaw in one of the principles Zeno employs. I will be analyzing Zeno’s argument through the lens of Simplicius’ commentary on Aristotle’s Physics, as it is the clearest reproduction of the original paradox.

In his famous argument against plurality, Zeno argues, quite literally, against the claim that more than one thing exists. Though the argument seems subtle, its conclusion is incompatible with the way we look at the world (which, interestingly enough, seems to have been Zeno’s intention). Zeno begins by arguing that everything that exists, physically, must have size, or we would not say that it existed. This is an easy enough premise to accept, as one can imagine an object x without size; if x was added to y, it would not increase the size of y. Therefore, x does not exist; it is nothing. This concept is further clarified in Simplicius’ statement that “if when is subtracted, the other thing is no smaller, nor is it increased when is added, clearly is nothing.” Second, Zeno proposes that whatever has size must have parts, as it can be divided. He explains that any object must have a part that protrudes from another part of the object; some parts must be in front and beside other parts. Simplicius explains that “if it exists, each thing must have some size and thickness, and part of it must be apart from the rest.” So, anything that exists must have size and parts. If you were to take a part of an object x, this part will, obviously, exist. Thus, x will also have size and parts, and if you were to take a part of it, that too would have size and parts, and so on. Here, Zeno invokes the principle of infinite regression or divisibility with respect to his claim that any object that can be said to exist must have infinitely many parts with size. Any object with infinitely many parts with size, must be infinitely large. Therefore, Zeno concludes, anything that exists must be infinitely large. Simplicius states that “if there are many things, they must be both small and large…but so large as to be unlimited.” Obviously, there cannot be more than one infinitely large thing in existence, and thus, we are left with the argument against plurality. For Zeno, to accept that an object can be infinitely divided is to accept that the object is also infinitely large, and consequently, that plurality cannot exist.

Although upon first glance Zeno’s argument may appear sound, it has an inherent flaw. Zeno’s argument against plurality works on the basis of two principles: the infinite divisibility principle (that an object can be infinitely divided into parts) and the infinite sum principle (that the sum of an infinite amount of numbers is infinitely large). Though, for the sake of argument, we will assume that any object can be infinitely divided, the sum of its divisions will not be infinitely large. If this were the case, there would be a clear contradiction in concepts. If I were to take the mouse currently sitting to the right of my keyboard, for example, and divide it infinitely (assuming, of course, that I have this ability), I would be left with an infinite amount of parts. If I were to, theoretically, reconstruct all these parts so that my mouse is once again intact, it would not be infinitely large. Unfortunately for my mouse, it would still fit under my hand, and there lies the problem for Zeno. The infinite sum principle is an inherently contradictory concept, and the reason that it seems to work within the context of Zeno’s argument is because he takes it for granted. I am apt to assume that Zeno was aware of the absurdity of this principle because he spent the better part of his argument explaining infinite divisibility, only to imply the principle of infinite sum within a single premise. Zeno did, by the looks of it, try to pull a fast one. So, although the aim of Zeno’s argument was to reduce the common sense notion of plurality to absurdity, his argument is far from sound.[/tab]

then there is such thing as an infinitely big amount of numbers added up?

Techniaclally we cannot know the place does not exist if we have not got there yet…
but I see that you are refering to infinity as the thing that has no end.
Then we are discussing the wrong things, I am saying that any finite thing is infinitely big.

How can you say that the infinitely big exiists but not an infinite?
I see your thoughts though…

Personally I think he would agree that the perception of seperation exists…

Many assume his intention was to be paradoxicall, I don’t see that here yet, but I think what he was leaning to thought perhaps not being clear of, and maybe not having words yet associated to the thought, was that everything, especially whether something is finite or infinite, depends on the perception…That 0 and (inf) is no different with respect to 1 and 2 in that they both hold an infinite number of numbers between them…

This is harder to grasp as absolute because we often think we have found the smallest particle, and we have things like Planks content that “posits” a limit to smallness, but most of this is assumption…in fact it can’t actually be proven one way or another. I fail to see how we could know that the smallest thing we sense is not actually jsut the smalles thing we have the capacity to sense…(I tendto thinking that the only real limited thing is the mind, and its capacity to observe limits, but then maybe that limit is only due to the acceptance that such exists…) Often scientists are finding smaller qualities of what was deemed the smallest, how long will it take before endless continuence is though…perhaps we will think the limit is such simply because we don’t have a knife that is thin enough to cut…that is a silly fallicious argument…of course things can get smaller, just because we have liits does not mean that anything else is limited…

that would seem absolute that something is infinitely large relative to something infinitely small, many don’t take into account relativity. Think of the old thought experiment there are two people in space to 1 the other #2 is moving towards 1, to #2 1 is moving towards 2…some then say in reality only one is moving to the other…because if your (relivate)have a frame of reference say the earth then one will apperar to be moving the other not…but that is only relative to the earth…in reality the earth is moving. and in reality even then both men are moving towards each other. Or one or the other…it is relative… often it is important to take one perspective of relativity for the sake of particular calculations, ultimately it is almost always possible to take both or either and arrive at the same result with repsect to things like speed and what not, except that the math tends to be less time consuming in certain manners…

I might think is the inappropriate conclusion, in reality plurality exists definitievley at least inso far as it is percieved, it cannot be asserted with definnance that perception of things as infinite would be always otherwise beneficial, though with respect to the idea it does suggest that all things are one at least if so percieved and thus for exapmple one can be selfish but call the self as of all things and thus effectively be selfless…

I think the porblem here is that it is evident that there are paradoxes of sorts seeming on both sides, some go with one a few go with zeno, but it would seem perhaps more logical to see that really things are both plural and/or as one.

Interesting thing is that it is actually impossible to add up an infinite number of parts…even with computers the number isn’t actually reached…it just become evident that it is not going to reach past a particular amount…due to evidence of reduction of rates…
So it is interesting that while matematically we cannot calulate and infinite number of individual parts, individually, there is the capacity to over come an infinite number of parts in the real world…

[/quote]
Again I think you are wrong here, Zeno thought that plurality was a silly perception of things, and I believe that with respect to consideration of certain things it is…In his zealous attempts at informing those of the capacity and distinct actual plausability of unity thought he failed to see that both exist…interestingly you might think that both existint is plural, but both can be seen to exist as one real thing rather percived in different forms. I.E. we really have to paris of lenses we can look through, we have to look through at least one else we are not percieving, perahsp sopme can inter change others look through both (red and blue on glases + 3D…interesting thought…anyeays…) but changing the lense doesn’t change the actual singularity of reality…So perhaps zeno is correct in so far that in reality…reality ios one, but can be percived as both…but then that requires evidence or support that reality actually exists out side of perception…but then one might say that perception is an aspect plural to reality, but I would say that is only under the perception that rality and perception are separate to begin with, that can be percived , but it would seem all things are connected that exist, and thus by connection are fairly one.

Perhaps sI confused some in my method of support in arguning along with Zeno in that it would seem i was suggesting there is no actuality of plurality…Realy i am saying that there is by menas of perception ultiately: that either plurality and unity exist…or plurality is a mere concept, and unity is the objective actuality…That of course it would seem hard if at all possible to know the objective reality. Thus we must consider that things are both plural and one, as separate things perhaps but also as one further depending on the perceptive aspect considered…Of course we are more used to plurality…

Not past tense, “added”, because they can never be added.
The sum can never be reached, but also that sum itself, “infinity”, doesn’t exist at all. The sum is defined to be non-existent.
Something infinite big merely has no end, no “summit”.

Yes we can, because it is [size=150]defined as something that cannot exist[/size].
If we define a gorbolitribe as a non-existent tribe, the we know that it doesn’t exist, else it wouldn’t be a gorbolitribe.
“Infinity” is defined as the end of an infinite line. And an infinite line is defined as a line with no end.

Yes. And that is why a single infinite step cannot ever happen, thus one certainly (100%) cannot make more than one.

I deal daily with infinity issues, specifically with;
An infinite matrix
of infinite matrices
of infinite series’
of infinite series’

Take my word for it. I am intimately familiar with the concepts involved.