Nietzsche's will to power.

I made an abridged post about this yesterday, but I feel like it deserves its own thread.

                                                                   [u][b]Will to Power[/b][/u]

From my readings of Nietzsche, the WTP underlies everything, or rather the everything is a correlational representation of it. And that the the WTP is not merely reactive, but pro-active; it presses forward. Some say that Nietzsche wasn’t so animistic about “it” ( Nietzsche was not a monist, or atomist ), but I beg to differ; I think there are ample excerpts from his texts that illustrate my point:

If you observe the world around you, is it not patent that all force is perpetually " seeking" to accumulate more ( until it disassembles,of course ), to expand itself. You can see it in the inorganic and organic; gravitation - social-climbing - consumption.

Thoughts?

Yes-- this is what we have called elsewhere also “self-valuing”: the ontological fact that every being is an instance of “valuing” itself, which means to hold itself and what it is, as structure, as being, as need, as a standard of value which means a standard for interpretation and action.

An atom is a self-valuing, holding itself in existence by the manners in which it regulates and interprets energy based on what it is. So is an apple, or a flower, or a human being.

Nietzsche called this striving-force the will to power, and it is a good name. But because the concept of “will” is steeped in mysticism and can lead to confusion, I prefer to avoid that. We think that self-valuing “rehabilitates” the will to power by, not correcting it, for it is correct, but by deepening it and opening its interior up toward explication of the structure of the will to power. The who, where and what of it Nietzsche already answered, by discovering; we are now working on the how and why. Also the distinctions, which he touches on briefly in his notebooks, between living and non-living “wills to power” is quite important and interesting.

Nietzsche was the last great philosopher who attempted to unite all truth in himself, who felt this possibility as a pathos, as a restless desire, as a suffering and a necessity. Perhaps there have been others, but I am unaware of them. I know only of a few thinkers today who are working in this area, continuing to make progress where Nietzsche worked and left off: Parodites, Fixed Cross, and myself. This is the scope of the future of philosophy, and all future work in philosophy will eventually trace itself back to this point, just as Nietzsche correctly knew that he would be the axel around which the future of philosophy turned. If you want links to some good material to read, let me know.

Yes, WTP is a mechanism that underlies everything, not just psychological phenomena.

Mechanical Monster,

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean. “Self-valuing”? As opposed to what? As opposed to non-self-valuing?

Also, “ontological” fact… as opposed to what? “Non-ontological” fact?

All these terms are so ugly one has to wonder what kind of person do you have to be to willfully accept them.

WTP basically states that everything in the universe strives for growth, that the purpose of life is growth/expansion/domination.

Yes, you are not familiar with the usage of these terms. So of course they make no sense to you. You might be interested to understand what I mean with using them; then again, maybe not.

As for “the purpose” behind the will to power, or of it, it has no such “purpose”; growth, expansion, power, these are not “goals” of life and are just side-effects of the fact that life is composed of layers of reality which are self-inexhaustible and cannot contain their excessive discharge. Life is like multiple spheres of force-causality that are out of sync with each other and continuously produce excessive spill-over and “error” beyond their own borders. As a consequence of natural selection this has led to a refinement over time of this situation, leading ultimately to what we call instincts, which is the basis of all consciousness.

Only at the far, far, far end of that basic set-up, so called self-consciousness such as we possess, does anything teleological appear. Yet the tendency of that highly derivative telos as experience of self is to re-interpret everything in its own image- surely life, nay even existence itself, must have reason or purpose, a goal, a meaning, because I surely do! In fact only that highly developed subtle form of consciousness able to make such a noble error had any such purpose, goal or “meaning”.

Even animal life (non human animals) have their experience of self flattened almost infinitely, the zero-dimensional selfhood we see in “inorganic” matter or atomic matter. These too possess selves, but flattened and non-dimensional ones; as a consequence their “self-valuing” is of another kind than ours is.

The situation is much more complicated, however, because even our human self-consciousness is a result and contains in great measure much of that non-conscious and self-flattened substance from our evolutionary past. Take a human baby and raise it wholly outside of culture, language or human communication and you see the extent of the “inherent” nature of our human-ness, namely not at all or rather in potentia only.

Nietzsche didn’t really understand any of this yet; he discovered the basic naturalistic insight and he called it the will to power, a very good start but he was too close to this radical beginning to go much further into it. He didn’t mean this “will” in the sense Schopenhauer meant it, yet Nietzsche did struggle with this “metaphysical” lack and consequently went on to try reifying the naturalistic order itself (Eternal Return). I also believe this probably contributed to his mental-emotional break the beginnings of which we can start to see in his late work and letters.

Value Ontology picks up where Nietzsche left off. The will to power is only the starting point, only the beginning.

For valuing one has to be able to estimate, for example of something’s worth; in the case of self-valuing the self’s worth. But for the ability of estimation and consequently of valuing one needs awareness, and for awareness one needs something like a brain or at least an electric transmitter like a nerve.

How can - according to the Mechanical Monster or to the “Value Ontology” (“VO”) - an atom be a self-valuing? Are you saying that an electron is the electric transmitter I mentioned?

In other words, the power which underlies this eternity of recurrence underlays the will to exercise it’s self valuing. Things may have changed for N’s outlook, if he was still alive today, and it is likely that he is, in some form, his recurrence would indicate an ever changing recurrence, and self valuing would if i understand that concept, would imply toward a universal sense of self. N as a humanist? A proaction, would he have retracted some of his ideas to conform and repair the variance which developed in respect to the ring, as a result of his break with Wagner and his realization that his morality was grossly misinterpreted? And finally, would any philosopher be able to revise his own philosophy? I would think he would and could find a way to insure against the now growing sentiment, that poetic sensibility, can be sidetracked into opportunistic interpretations.

Were he alive today, modern and postmodern philosophy would perhaps, take another course to forestall some of the dead end situations apparently present today.

The ring, as conceived by Goethe, Wagner , may combined the coming technological age with a new vision of God, one where the concept could be resurrected, as in Brunhilda’s awakening. I do not see, how he could have re-asserted man’s central role as the product of creation, (again was he were alive today) , except through a re=affirmation to align that with the recurrence. Which would mean, ultimately, some kind of dramatic re-elevation of the aesthetic elements of tragedy.

Is this merely the childish inference or is there a hidden element here which sadly can only be best ‘understood’ by those unfamiliar with the cynicism of something far worse then romantic disillusionment ? Once we cease to have the capacity to love our own children, the devolution of man’s self valuing is imminent. Thus, the sado-masochism inherent in the very depths of the psyche, where children become early on, the recipients of the futile anguish of their parents, are made to concede the untimely end to their innoscence.

How far is society willing to entertain the growing conspiratorial doubt, of the early childhood fear, of this hopeless attitude? Pink Floyd sings of this in the ‘Wall’ , that, education building on blocks of doubt, rather than of faith, has in effect demoralized society, the effects being a denial of pessimism’s role in any discussion of future evolution. Pessimism in this respect can be seen as far more constructive then an over ebullient optimism built on false premises.

We are at a crossroads, change is the necessary order of the day, and although those to whom philosophy means only a jest, a taunt, or a ‘dressing down’ as in the fairy tale of the ‘emperor has no clothes’, where truth can only be discovered at the expense of political correctness, while those entertaining and musing those philosophers who are kidded, and excused ,catered to for silly remarks on account of their difference of outlook?

We have reached certain limits, not yet critical, but where such techniques of indulging them can no longer be afforded, masks have to come off, the tragedy exposed, as worn out cliches, and the intent and forthright honesty re-established.Then the reconversion of power, be truly re-aligned, in this age of Acquarius,and it WILL cause a natural re-alignment of the natural order of psychic elements.

Yes, I am not familiar with them, however, I doubt they are very useful.

Most of the philosophy is reactive i.e. it is a product of weak-willed people (intelligent but with no willpower), which is why I tend to be suspicious of it.

In other words, I doubt this is how men of action think, or would think if they ever had a reason to think of these things, since this way of thinking belongs to men of observation.

No serious man, for example, would ever think in terms of “metaphysics” or “ontologies” or whatever. It’s ridiculous.

Self-valuation too. Who values himself? Who thinks of his own value for christsake? Excessively self-conscious people, of course. People whose lack of willpower reduces them to mere mirrors.

That said, to reduce WTP to self-valuation is a little bit strange.

That’s the purpose behind the universe, not behind WTP (WTP is merely a description of how universe works, though, you can say that’s the purpose behind WTP too, since WTP is part of the universe.) And yes, WTP is a description of the universe according to which everything strives for growth. So there is purpose/meaning/goal, but this goal is not necessarily a conscious goal, for not everything in the universe possesses consciousness (e.g. rocks) and even those things that do possess consciousness do not have to be, and in certain cases can’t be, conscious of it.

Yes, and ants can’t do math.

It is only highly developed individuals who can become conscious of the purpose of the universe. Ants, for example, can’t – they lack the necessary brain structure. But that, of course, does not mean that there is no purpose before we observe it (or worse: make it up.) To hell with that rubbish way of thinking.

No serious man would think in terms of metaphysics or ontologies? Hhm. I don’t know, I am serious, and can think in both, besides how does the above proposition exhaust all meanings of being ‘serious’?

judgements on meaning are inadequate, when all definitions are not included. Besides ,ontology and metaphysics are the foundation without which thought it’s self may be lacking. Just because there is and end of history as some claim, does not mean that history can simply be denied to have ever been relevant or, effective.

Thoughts are formed differently when they are guided by desire to create something (the question “how?”) and when they are guided by desire to merely observe something in its entirety (the question “what?”)

I can really relate to this sentiment. I especially used to have it when I was younger, for instance when someone used the word “epistemology”. I now understand what it means, but I can still relate to your sentiment even from my current perspective. My form may have become too scholarly, though I hope not so much as Mechanical Monster’s. He may have brilliant things to say, but his form usually puts me off. This could be intentional, or at least beneficial: thus when I informed Fixed Cross of the notion that, basically, the philosophers of the past had disguished themselves as priests, he brilliantly suggested that the contemporary equivalent of that disguise could be that of the scholar or scientist (there is no distinction between the two in the Germanic languages). And indeed, value ontology–the teaching that beings are self-valuings–is pretty much philosophy in a lab coat. Nietzsche, too, pretended to be a scholar in Beyond Good and Evil and the like, in order to tempt scholars and scientists into the “entrance hall” of his philosophy: his Thus Spake Zarathustra, which features no such technical language, such jargon. Nietzsche also said that Voltaire wrote nobly because he avoided such language as much as possible. What’s certain is that it will only put off non-scholars who are already on the threshold of this philosophy.

[size=95]“Strauss’s essay [on Nietzsche] has a face only a scholar could love. Its profundity and astringent beauty become visible only as the rewards of toil to which that deceptively plain face beckons the reader. […] Strauss’s writings lack what Nietzsche’s writings flaunt: flair, shock, personality, temptation—Nietzsche’s writings announce that they are the work of the devil. Nietzsche writes as if he’s out to maim. Strauss writes as if it were always his greatest responsibility to appear harmless. But behind that harmless, scholarly appearance lurks something dangerous after all.” (Lampert, Leo Strauss and Nietzsche, page 2.)[/size]

This is where I must disagree with you. Yes, you accurately describe scholars, but philosophers are not just scholars; yet they are also not in the first place men of action. Political philosophy–that is, the political activity of philosophers–stands in the service of philosophy proper, “First Philosophy”, that is to say,–metaphysics… For the philosophers, action stands in the service of contemplation. But this contemplation is not “immaculate perception”; it is the most spiritual will to power, an imposition of their will on the nature of all beings. And indeed, the philosophers change the world precisely by interpreting it in different ways: for their interpretations inform the values and thereby the actions of the men of action.

Only the living have will. The living were a product of inanimate matter. Inanimate matter does not have will. Thus, life came into existence not as a product of will, but a product of circumstance.

The living being ought not value itself intrinsically. This assumes survival above all else, regardless of condition, that survival ought be valued.

There are many circumstances where one’s survival is quite undesirable for valid reasons.

Imagine a being born in existence, whose every moment of life, was the worst possible pain imaginable. Absolutely no hope minimizing the pain, except with death. Now, who ought say to this being, ‘You ought value yourself - the structure that produces constant torture for it’s bearer.’?

Fuck that. Maybe, just maybe, you’ve got just cause to disvalue yourself.

Power is capacity - control. Power thus is a tool, not necessarily applied, but produced towards an end. Power to […]? Surely that which our accumulated power relates to, is of greater significance to us than our power to attain it. To say our will is only towards power, is to say - ‘We’ve no interest beyond the capacity - for power is the end in itself, the ultimate goal.’

If I’ve the power to eat, then I’ve no need to eat. If I’ve the power to love, then there’s no need to love.

Saying that everything is a product of a will to accumulate power, is to say all matter has this will (unlikely), and that we as living beings have no interest beyond accumulation of power, i.e. our greater will is not to exercise this power towards a greater objective / priority / value.

Suicide flies in the face of self value / survival as an end in itself / the self’s will to exert it’s structure on it’s environment. Suicide undermines each of these claims.

Will to Live

There are times when one follows and upholds one’s self-value through the act of suicide. This is not a contradiction at all; as Schopenhauer noted, suicide can be a means to life, which is to say, the last way to retain who we are, our self and sense of that self, against overwhelming and otherwise total annihilation and change.

If it comes down to either being forced to live through absolute such change and self-annihiliation or to deliberately act to prevent that, even if it means that one dies in the process, then the suicidal act is an act of life, and of self-love. In that situation there may be no other higher self-value. And even Nietzsche wrote that the will to power is not the will to life or survival, because our seeking for power, after the feeling of power will often cause us to court our own disaster and ruin, and consciously so.

Granted those situations mandating suicide are quite rare, there is almost always many possible moves we can make to seek our values and act in great measure with respect to what we are, with respect to the reality of our need and goals. “Truth” is this process of discovering this “true nature” which is only the reality the self is actually faced with and composed of, but such reality as tends to be ignored and dismissed/denied into delusions and pathologies.

The will to power is only the beginning, only the birth of the pure naturalizing conception. This is the precursor to a philosophy of human finitude and mortality, to speak with Parodites; to a real philosophy of the self as concerns its actual lived, real conditions and nature. Nietzsche did an excellent job but really he only uncovered this ground, he didn’t get to explore it to great degree, for various reasons. We are luckier than him. We can take his great, suffering work and assume it as our mere ground and given state, to push outward and climb further. What we have decided to call Value Ontology is one effort in that direction.

All new powers are offensive to the weak.

Thus one’s highest priority / value / goal is not survival in and of itself, but relates to what one’s survival entails.

And if the self is defined simply as one’s own body, then this ‘self-value’ is overruled by said higher priority / value / goal.

The question I wonder to myself -

When you say ‘self-value’, how do you define self?

==

:icon-rolleyes:

MM appears to be a better thinker than you.

Objectivity

MM is an excellent thinker. You are neither a bad thinker nor a good thinker - you just need to find a hobby. Knitting, perhaps.

It is obvious why Satyrs little pet-boys love pop-writing with some philosophically tasty terms mixed into it, and loathe technical terms. They have very modest intelligence and Nietzsche’s more accessible work is like a talisman, a mantra. This is the problem with Nietzsche, he appeals to the vulgar and sub-averagely intelligent.

I am glad I have managed to ‘purify’ him in this sense, put a ‘lab coat’ on his philosophy, bring it to maturity, to logical exactitude.
I have no problem that the purity of this thinking offends the lower castes. I do have a problem with touching these untouchables. I do not know if I can stand being among the lower castes much longer.

The part of all philosophers has been to be rejected, as all new powers are frightening to the weak, so all new intellectual might is terror to the moron, and the moron is the rule.

I have given an immense gift to humanity, and in return I have acquired followers and friends, have seen minds explode with new won might and have enabled a future for myself as a powerful man.

But I have also seen the creatures of excrement to crawl up to me, send me PM’s and compare me to their idols, and blame me for developing a philosophy that shows them their weakness.
I think I am mostly blamed for showing pseudo-Nietzscheans that their will to power is really slavishness, that they need to value themselves, which is impossible for them. I have made Nietzsche immune to the resentful. VO can simply not be grasped by a slavish mind; this can be determined with logical exactitude.

You purified Satyr?

Last I heard you idolized him, hence why you spent so much time on his forum, and then when others spoke against him, you rushed to his defense.

Yet it was you, wise FC, who provided a cure?

Personally, I’ve been against Satyr’s philosophy from the moment I encountered it. Likewise with yours, because it was clearly infected with Satyr’s.

But you say whatever you need to calm that cognitive dissonance, bro.

Keep fighting the good fight. Don’t worry about us ‘lessers’.

You’ve always been beyond us.

(I’ve no doubt I could trace back my major criticisms against Satyr, before you even raised your voice.)

=

I’ve had respect for N. since Sauwelios made the following thread: The 4 Aeons

This is when I learned of what N. meant by WtP. (I hadn’t read any of his works)

I’ve had respect for N. since this point. Any word by me to the contrary, was a means to an end.

==

Notice, everyone.

Fixed was given two options.

He could reply to my questions regarding his ‘brilliant’ terminology, or he defend his image.

He chose to defend his image, and not respond to the contents of ‘his’ philosophy.

FC in a nutshell. Priorities: image > philosophy

See here the illiterate.

It is just that you are infinitely lower than him.

So,

Why’d you idolize and defend his name, bro?

Doesn’t sound like a great cure to me.

Satyr must be overcome before you can approach me. Back to KTS, Ben.