Abortion

I want to apologize in advance for starting a thread on abortion :wink:

I am taking a social ethics course over the summer, and I noticed that this is one of the topics. I personally do not know how I stand on this issue. I know several people who have had abortions, and I know that they are better off for having done so, if you do not take into account the guilt that many of them feel on a daily basis. Should they feel guilty? Is abortion murder? If someone is never conscious, are they ever alive?

I suppose the only safe course of action is to suppose the worst case scenario, and assume that the fetus is actually a human. If there is a potential for murder, then one must act accordingly and not follow through with an act that they will never know is murder or not.

But why should a possible human’s needs take precedent over your own? From a utlitarian standpoint, abortion should be legal. But then again, utilitarianism has its problems.

And what about if a girl is raped and becomes impregnated. Should she have to endure labor and a child that is the result of probably the worst incident of her life? It is one hell of a tall order to force a girl to have a child that was conceived through rape simply because nobody wants to deal with a guilty conscious, when the grounds for feeling guilty are purely speculative.

I guess when you boil it all down, the only real deterrent to having an abortion is a guilty conscious (unless you are religious, in which case it may be sinning and a guilty conscious). But lets throw out religion, as I don’t want to bring another speculative variable into the equation. What creates your consciousness? Why do we feel guilty? Is it only because we have been taught to feel guilty, or is it something innate? Perhaps this is the real question I should be asking; but then again I don’t want to erase my entire post, so I shall make one super-post and ask for both your opinions. Yes, an earth-shattering breakthrough at ILP. The first double-header. Lets see how confusing this can get :wink: .

Matthew, about abortion I’d say that it should be allowed under any circumstances, for a variety of reasons. First, I believe that being a person (rather than just human) is more a function of personality and intellect than species, and thus a foetus, being pretty much a blank slate, has no particular rights. I would also say from a utilitarian viewpoint that the (hopefully) brief suffering of the mother would be nothing compared to the suffering caused to both mother and child if the mother was unwilling or unready to raise a child but had to anyway.
About guilt… I’d say we felt guilt because the ideals imprinted upon us by society, parents, education/indoctrination etc. do not match our actual selves and actions. We are all given an impossible image of ourselves to aspire to, and when we fail to be this we are disappointed and feel inadequate. I don’t think guilt as such is innate, but in my definition it is difficult to separate from feeling dejected by failure (which may be innate, I’ve never thought about it before), so… perhaps. Good question, I will think about it over the next few days.

Is abortion right or wrong in an absolute sense, I don’t know, but either way it solves a problem. As a man I can never fully understand the range of emotions or uncertainties that a woman must go through before and after this event. But that being stated I still have a strong opinion on the subject.

I believe in Necessity, whatever is necessary should be done. So abortion carried out as the result of an unwanted sexual act (rape in all it’s many forms) I think is acceptable. But abortion where the woman had wanted sex, yet did so unprotected is just irresponsible. I believe all abortion is the killing of a human life; the foetus is never, not human. It comes from two humans Man and Woman, it fuses and at some point becomes one of those genders. Never at anytime during this process is it anything other then part of a human, so therefore a human. If I were to cut my hand off and show it to somebody they would say it’s a human hand. Just because we can’t easily see this distinction with bodily fluids shouldn’t mean that a human should die.

When we start to see human life in any of its many forms as a complication it reveals just how selfish we can be. I want the fun, but not the possible consequences of my actions. I’ll eat my cake and get some liposuction!

The guilt felt by a woman after the ordeal of rape is the most unpleasant thing I can think of, I don’t believe anyone should ever have to go through such a thing. This type of suffering is my main gripe with the Religious nuts that talk about the sanctity of life, yet their loving voyeur of a God just stands idly by and is probably getting some type of sick kick from the whole situation.

While the guilt felt by the irresponsible women I have no sympathy for, I only have sympathy for the needless waste of a human life in the name of getting her rocks off. Please don’t say the man is partly responsible, as women know better then most how men are completely useless. Women are always talking about how they want control of there bodies! Well take the Pill, use one of those female condom things, or if the guy doesn’t have condoms then do something that won’t end up with you getting pregnant. Don’t tell me you where drunk and didn’t know, so much for wanting control! Haha. I’m sorry for getting quite emotional about this but it really ticks me off to see women go out get drunk, have some “fun” and then start saying why me? For these women I think there should be a stigma about having an abortion, why, because it might make them more sexually responsible. I know accidents can happen and for these women I do feel a great deal of sympathy.

It might be worth putting this in its own topic, while I understand why it’s useful here; I think it would also make for an interesting discussion ‘On the Origins of Guilt’.

Grave Disorder wrote:

Very interesting. I have never thought of it that way. But would the same logic follow for a human in a coma? What if a man were in a coma for ten years. Does he not have the right to be kept on life support with the possibilty that he will awaken? Perhaps his family cannot afford to keep him in the hospital. Should they have to suffer working two jobs (the same way a mother would have to suffer labor for a child) only on the possibilty that he will awaken? So the only difference between a fetus (or foetus to the Europeans) and an unconscious man is really that others have developed a relationship with the latter.
Pax Vitae wrote:

Another point I have never considered. When push comes to shove, all we are doing is merely problem solving. Because the problem deals with human life (atleast it’s potential) everyone gets cold feet in choosing the obvious answer.

This could sound harsh, I don’t mean it to be too harsh. Its my opinion. Naturally abortion is wrong. If we did not have the equipment to carry it out it would not be possible, animals cannot have abortions, so abortions are against nature so they are wrong. I agree wth Pax that if you are irresponsible enough to get yourself pregnant when the intercourse is not forced then you made your bed you will lie in it, in this case abortion is also wrong, I think. I think it is, for this case, a convenience, a luxury so it is murder.
For rape. I have no opinions. I myself would have a problem deciding what to do. I think rape is when pregnancy stops being natural (as an animal of the Earth) and starts being human, because it involves emotions. This may sound silly, me suggesting that pregnancy on a day to day basis does not involve emotions, but I mean that it animals don’t feel violated like a victim of rape would so dealing with rape is a human problem. Therefore because abortion is a human solution, then abortion should only be contemplated after rape.

Technically a(n unwanted) foetus is a parasite, as it has symbiotic qualities, so I personally support abortion rights. However, I dod think that abortion shouldn’t be used as a method of birth control as it isn’t easy on the mother, both emotionally and physically. The way I see it is a conflict in rights between a living, breathing woman and a foetus. I personally think the woman has more rights.

Humans experience being imposed things and in the strange societies of today abortion is right. In other times it wasn’t practised, but now it is. There is a reason for that. The pope won’t take that into consideration, of course… I think rape is much a thing of antique times and on. And we live in conditions that make abortion natural. If one believes in the idea of autonomic humans with its connotations to christianity and other religions, then of course the development of today’s society must be very frustrating. Because we move into times where all are in one through multimedia and an informational society where pragmatism counts more than old-fashioned morals etc. The idea of autonomic humans becomes more and more old-fashioned and one seeks more and more to improve conditions rather than regard them as unavoidable/insoluble. So, the term “sin” decreases in authority day after day as the informational revolution steadily breaks through. Paradigms like Christianity, communism, purified capitalist system and so on are left and, hopefully, for good.

Sparky, what is against nature is not necessarily wrong. Animals don’t use computers either, but you don’t seem too guilt-stricken about that. Perhaps a rather infantile reply, but I am sick of people spewing out this argument. Animals don’t use birth control, animals don’t live in houses, in short we should not try to derive codes of ethical conduct from the behaviour of related creatures.
As for abortion, whatever your position on the morality of it it ought to be legal, because the decision is the mother’s and not yours. No-one is forcing her to have one against her wishes, unless of course she lives in China.

Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be a man who was likely to wake up but had total, permanent amnesia. I would say that in Matthew’s example the man has every right to be kept alive, and as for the problem of funding… well, it’s not right that the mother should have to slave away to keep her partner alive. Enter state healthcare, something I am most definitely in favour of. Basically, as you said, the crucial difference is that there are people who care for the grown man, whereas the problem with the foetus is precisely the opposite.

The issue with abortion, so far as I’m concerned, is that of personhood. The issue is not about whether the fetus is human, or has the potential to become human, it’s about whether or not we can define it as a person.

You may have different ideas on the issue, but for me personhood rests solely with the issue of “independence”. A fetus is dependant on its incubating mother for survival - it is in no way an independent being, in no way deserving of the title of “personhood”.

“Aha”, you may say, “but what about babies? They’re dependant on the mother too, does that mean we can go around killing babies?”. The difference between the post-naetal fetus (i.e. a baby) and the pre-naetal fetus though, is that while the baby may be dependant on another human for it’s survival, it is now capable of surving independantly of its natural mother. The mother may die in labour, but the baby may be nurtured by an aunt or another relative. This is what I mean by independence - the baby, as a being, is no longer merely an extension of the mother. It attains personhood - and the full rights associated with this this titile - at its moment of independence.

“Humanity” is no basis for the morality of abortion - my appendix is human, so is it “murder” when I have it removed?

Similarly, “potentiality” for personhood is no basis either - could we send every masturbatory male and every mestrual female to trial for allowing the death of a potential person?

The grey area when it comes to abortion, then, is merely at which point can we say that the fetus is deserving of personhood. Generally, any fetus aborted pre-tri-semester has little chance of surviving on its own. 21 - 25 weeks after conception is where, generally, the majority of fetus’s are not yet developed enough to pass the independence test. Any fetus aborted after this period though, has a reasonable chance of surviving and so this is where I draw the line, morally, between abortion and infanticide. The only permissable tri-semester abortions, in my opinion, are those where the fetus threatens the life of the mother or where the fetus is demostrably deformed or has been identified as having a degerative disease or condition which renders the possibility of a “happy” life impossible (many such conditions cannot be identified until late in the pregnancy). So far as I’m concerned - and I’m sure many of you will disagree with me - there are some states of existence that no individual, potential or otherwise, should be forced to endure. If you have a strong stomach, look up “Harlequin Fetus” in Google (I would do it myself, but the images of these retched creatures are among the most sad, disturbing things I have ever seen) and tell me that any mother should be forced into labour when such “run-away psoriasis” has been identified in the fetus. And this is just one of many fetal abnormalities - of varying degrees of grotesqueness - that would render any potential “meaningful” life on behalf of the developing fetus impossible.

In addition to all this, it should be pointed out that I am not “encouraging” abortion here, merely recognising that abortion is the last choice in a desperate situation and as such, given the good, well-thought out reasons a woman considers before going under the knife, it should be recognised as a legitimate medical undertaking without the pseudo-religious moral dogma usually associated with it. No woman wants to have an abortion - it is always a heart-renching decision. People who oppose abortion often overlook this fact. Perhaps the fetus was only conceived through irresponsible sexual activity. Perhaps the couple should have taken more care - but to what extent does this responsibilty extend? Can you force a woman to have a baby against her will? Is that going to be good for the woman or her child? Must she forever pay for a mistake she was too naive to avoid? Must the child pay for her mistake by being raised in a family it is not wanted in, and - perhaps - it cannot be supported by materially?

If abortion is immoral, how about the alternative?

Hello

I think the core subject about abortion is: Must abortion be legally allowed?

My answer is yes. Even if a person disagree with that, is OK. Do not do it in any circumstances or do it in the few ones you think is OK. That is.

However if abortion remain penalized, there is not relief to the people that want to choose do it. Because by doing so makes her become a delinquent.

Notice that my answer leaves open many philosophical questions but in some way justice can not wait for questions that may be indefinitely remain open.

Carlos

Consciousness is really awareness which is a necessary tool for empathy and sympathy which is needed for social living. Guilt is not innate. It is learnt and is basically just a bad feeling towards something that is known to be ‘morally wrong’ because we know that other people won’t like an action commited that is morally wrong and we don’t want to be rejects of society in anyway because we depend on it.

As a woman I really do not know how to feel about abortion. On the one hand I feel that many irresponsible women are just using this as a form of birth control and yet on the other hand there will always be the young girls who are raped, or the mothers whose lives are in danger.

Most of the time I see abortion as being uneccesary, avoidable. It is very upsetting to see a twenty year old woman who was just being loose and drunken by her own choice, have an abortion. It is not an easy thing to do, physically or emotionally, if you could prevent it from happening, I don’t see why you wouldn’t. There are plenty of birth control methods out there, abortion should not be one of them.

Why does one feel guilty? I personally think we learn guilt. You see, my spiritual interpretation of the world is that there is no bad or good, there just is. Everything happens for a reason, we learn from everything, even when we refuse to see it. So guilt is useless, it’s a worthless feeling. However, just because I say this doesn’t mean I think it’s okay to hurt yourself or others. You see, we had to create guilt because some people don’t have the capacity to accept this great freedom, this great responsibility to humanity, without abusing it and saying well, if I don’t have to feel guilty, then I’ll just be a rotten person. No, nobody is saying you can be a rotten person, having no guilt means you have the ability to completely love yourself and others, to have greater understanding of the world if you so choose, if you accept it in this manner.

Is abortion murder? In my spiritual interpretation of the world, no it is not. Why? While I believe every living thing and every object in this earthly plane has a spiritual essence, being of the highest source, God, what have you, they do not have souls, save for animals that have already been birthed. I believe the soul does not enter the human body till the labor process, when the child has entered this plane of existance. So, even though I believe we should not kill living things, hence creating a disturbing wave in the spiritual world, I see an abortion like everything else; an action in a world of karma where everything comes full circle in one way or another.

I hope I didn’t steer to far from your questions.

peikoff.com/essays/abortion.htm

Yeah, I found a similar article in The Nation about abortion:

I think the answer has little to do with abortion at all, it is clear that the government does not want too many people to have sex, because sexually active people are happy people, and happy people will realize just how sh**ty society is really fast and they will revolt. It is because the masses are kept in relative misery that they don’t revolt, which seems anti-logical, but then again that is only because they teach you the lesson that seeing the truth is bad before they teach you that sex is bad. To get to the main point, the whole abortion issue is to scare people away from having sex and to prevent them from having “too much” fun.

a good essay to read is “Abortion and Infanticide” by Michael Tooley.

I’m crazy for reviving this thread. I never talk about abortion, so I don’t know what’s suddenly gotten into me…

It seems that there is no one conclusive argument in favor of abortion. Rather, its moral status rests on a number of social and emotional considerations that, taken as a whole, warrant its permissibility.

However, there is a fairly conclusive argument against abortion (at least I’ve never seen it refuted), and I think at the very least, it ought to make people question their assumptions about the issue. This argument was put forth by Don Marquis in the Journal of Philosophy about 15 years ago. However, quite puzzlingly (in my view), it hasn’t really affected either side of the debate. Both sides continue to focus on when human life begins–which, on Marquis’ view is the wrong starting place. Instead of asking what the fetus IS, we ought to wonder what it is we are taking from it when it is aborted. The argument proceeds as follows:

Why is it wrong to kill another human? The only plausible answer to this question is that killing inflicts on the victim one of the greatest losses s/he can suffer: the loss of a human future. But why is it immoral to do this? Because it institutes a double standard: if you are to view your own future as valuable, then you must accept that futures similar to yours are also valuable. In taking another life, you effectively devalue the future experiences your victim would have; and if at that point you still view your own future as valuable, you are guilty of moral inconsistency.

The move to abortion is obvious. Regardless of its current developmental status, the fetus is an entity with a future like our own. If the loss of a future like ours really is the greatest consideration when defining murder, it must have implications for the ethical status of abortion. Obviously, there are times when other considerations override the future-like-ours principle (killing in self defense, just war, etc), and certainly this would also extend to abortion.

So here’s my question: what are the considerations that justify abortion in the face of this argument? I for one think that on a legal level, reversing abortion laws in the U.S., or in any other country, would be catastrophic. Further, I think that the question of overpopulation should also be taken into account. However, Marquis’ argument very convincingly calls into question the moral foundations behind the “safe and legal” abortion ideal. Can we truly call ourselves a moral society, a society respectful of human life, if we are casual about destroying beings with futures like our own?

Perhaps this post will provoke a strong emotional response; that’s fine–so long as reason is respected. All I ask is that this argument be taken seriously.

Interesting argument Logo, but I think it falls flat in the potential for a full and good human life rest not only in every fetus, but in every conciveable act of copulation that one might carry out in a day- includeing numerous rapes.

It is perfectly true that, if I raped the check-out girl a the grocery store, that the child might be the greatest or happiest man of all time.

So all the time we are destroying possible human beings, just by not haveing sex. I think there must be justification for this- and it is that most lives we could make would be incrediably crappy. This puts us in an interesting position, we must evaluate each potential person to see weather we can provide them with a happy life weather they have developed into a featus or not. If they could be happy we must carry through. If they may not be happy we must abort at any stage.

Ergo, rich people should have as many children as they can support, which for men may involve constant sex.

Now of course this is all predicated on the idea that the reason murder is wrong is the estiguishing of human future potential. I think that may have been the mistake.

Well…Marquis deals with this sort of criticism. It’s not that you are somehow denying a future human the right to live; morality does not extend to non-existent beings. The problem is that you are depriving an already existing entity of the experiences, projects, activities and enjoyments of a human future. And that precisely what is wrong with murder. Again, it is not a matter of whether or not the fetus is human; what matters is that it is an entity with a human future.

That may well be. But I have yet to find a better definition for murder.