Abortion

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
21

Consider this point for a moment. It is a real example from my personal life. I have a son and daughter, both of whom would not exist had their mother not aborted our first child. Are my children’s (numbers 2&3) lives less worthy of the right to live because of this?

Attempting to attribute rights to that which cannot by nature have them is the problem with the anti-abortion stance (see my link above). Even if your personal wants, likes/dislikes etc tell you it is wrong to support abortion the facts as discerned through basic logic show us the contradictions as with the above example. When we register these non-sensical semantics it is up to a rational person to differ to the answer that offers no contradiction. That is not to say that the door is permanently closed on the issue only that an opposite point of view is not supported at this time. When new evidence is proposed and shown to be non-contradictory to known facts then the opposing position can be re opened. If this process isn’t followed then we end up wasting immense amounts of time and energy “chasing our tails round and round” trying to resolve an impossible question. (i.e. What is bigger than the universe – What if everything disappeared? Would there be absolutely nothing?)

Just because a question can be formulated with language doesn’t mean that it can be answered. When words are placed in an illogical context you have nothing more than a silly puzzle with no solution.

Regards,

22

I think the relevant aspect of the Peikoff article is captured in this quote:

The first part of this statement, that rights can only pertain to an actual being, is certainly true. But then the question becomes, is a fetus a separate being, or is it simply a part of the mother’s body? To me it seems reasonable to view the fetus as a part of the mother until it is viable outside the womb. However, what constitutes “viable” is bound to change with advances in medicine. It is only a matter of time before we can produce artificial-womb technology that will sustain a fetus from early in the first trimester. At that point, we will be forced to view the fetus as a distinct being. And then question becomes not, “is this being a person?” but rather, “what are we taking from it?” And the answer is a future like ours.

Now, it seems that one of the emotive considerations in defining murder is that it is an unsympathetic action. That is to say, it ignores the fact that the victim’s thoughts, feelings and values are very similar to your own. If sympathy is a basis for morality (and I think it is one basis), then Marquis’ argument has little force. It is quite difficult to feel sympathy for the fetus…at least in the early stages of the pregnancy. The fact is, even though abortion deprives an entity of a future like ours, this entity does not value its own future. Why then should we value it? Well, we value the future of an infant, even though that infant is incapable of valuing its own future. It seems sympathy can’t be the only consideration.

I suppose what it really boils down to is economics: society as a whole is better off because abortion is legal; that’s just a fact. I wish there was a better justification than that.

23

I do think birth is the wrong point to make the distintion. I much prefer such points as the beggining of narrative memory, ability to count, or first job.

In any case, the best definition I know for murder is a breach of contract with your governing body concerned with the active destruction of one of it’s citizen’s (or other protected person such as a forenier of a contry with which you nation has a treaty, or someone taken into asylum.)

I underline active because, the fact that you refuse to let homeless people sleep in your basement resulting in there death- does not make you a murderer. Similiarly, with disallowing someone rights to you womb.

I still however, cannot see how you differentiate between the zygote, and the two very real existant set of my sperm and her freashly fallen egg. Does the proximity of the two make a differance? If I bumb into her does that signal the begining of a potential human experiance? If we make eye contact? :stuck_out_tongue:

No matter is created or destroyed during conception. No potential exist that wasn’t there before.

24

I personally don’t think it’s really human until it can live outside of the mother.

But for arguments sake, let’s say the foetus becomes human at conception.

Once the baby is born the mother can give it up for adoption, but while it is still inside of her she must look after herself more carefully. She needs to eat more and see the doctor more, she needs to take time of work or school/uni/college (financial burden), it’s unplanned/unwanted and her friends and family may treat her differently or reject her altogether (social burden), there is sickness and a lot of pain involved and her body changes (physical burden), then there is the guilt she may feel, she is forced to think about life (mental burden).

Overall this other human is a major burden. It is reducing her quality of life. When people suffer accidents that could be avoided that cause loss of quality of life, they can sue. This child may permanently ruin her life. She should be allowed to take it’s life before it can permanently ruin hers. It is self-defence.

She doesn’t have to kill it of course, but she should at least have the option without being branded a criminal. Illegal abortions are dangerous and may also take the mother’s life as well. If abortions were made illegal, there would be a lot more mothers that become involved in illegal abortions.

It has the potential to become a criminal, or a financial burden on society, or a drug user, or possibly the happiest most successful person around. But really, it’s more likely to end up as another average person, another mouth to feed. Can you imagine if all the aborted foetuses were carried to term? What would the unemployment scale look like? Overpopulation and overcrowding is not a good thing.

What about teen pregnancies? These young people generally quit school to carry to term or look after the resulting baby. If abortions were not allowed then you would see a higher uneducated workplace. Abortion is better for society.

Besides, the mother can try for another pregnancy later on in life, when she is more ready.

I do think that the mother was stupid for having sex (excluding non-consentual), as even with protection there are risks. Even if she was drunk and had unprotected sex, it was her choice to get drunk. I do think that the mothers should be encouraged to keep the baby, because it is potential. But ultimately it should be her choice and not the choice of the state. Pregnancy is a personal, private thing and the state should respect people’s privacy.

25

Hi guys-

Some of you have raised interesting points, and i’d like to share my opinion on this matter. 1st- i am a woman, abortion, and my right to abortion is important to me. Now, i’ll have to say that i am 100% for abortion in ANY case (especially rape and incest). I have had friends who have had abortions after having sex ‘to get their rocks off’ which has gone wrong- condom breaking and the such. I understand how hard a decision it was that my friends made, i agree that it was totally right…

let me elaborate- i think that in MY state now- where i am in my life journey, means that if i got pregnant i would HAVE to have an abortion- and i believe that it is more for the child than me (of course it does benefit me, but i think thats secondary) I am a third year university student- i live off a government student allowance (i live in Australia) which is a pretty measley sum. I do not think that i have the life skills to enter into being a mother at this time. I have no permanent job, no permanant residence (certainly not a residence to raise a child in) no large savings, no health cover… the list goes on.

I think that the arguement of ‘killing’ a feotus completely misses the fact that, in most cases, the child will be better off not coming into this world with those partents in those circumstances. I dont know about you, but i want to be emotionally and finacially capable to raise a child in this world. I want to know that im in a stable realationship that ensures my childs happiness ( i come from a broken home, with a dead-beat dad, while it didnt effect me too badly (i still have a mistrust of men) i saw what it did to my brother- no thanks) Quite frankly, i think that keeping the child in this period of my life would be irresponsible, and would mean that the child WILL have a worse life now, than if i have a child when i am ready.

Also, i think that its just plain immoral and wrong to ask a woman to commit herself to 9 months of pregnacy, labour and 18 years of responsibility for another, against her will. Wether the foetus is ‘human’ or not, why should the mothers right to self determination be taken in order to give a feotus that no one can say is DEFFINATELY human yet, life? this to me seems pretty illogical, and another sneeky way to keep women “where they belong”- in the kitchen with 50 kids hanging off her.

I really just dont think its right for the child to HAVE to be born to parents that didnt want it, in circumstances that will only disadvantage the child in the long run- how right can it be to not ‘kill’ the kid, just so it can have a shitty life?? Bottom line is- having children hould only be something that TWO parents WANT and AGREE about doing- otherwise it just aint fair on the kid…

what do you think?

26

I think we should make abortion compulsory unless under government permit.

I also think that abortion is fine and good, but I do not hesitate to call it killing a fetus. Because that’s exactly what it is. That’s fine, not all life has the right to live, as nature itself shows. I’m sure some fru-fru leftist vegatable head or some rightist God-loves-all-the-little-fetuses asshole would love to contradict me on this…

…but when the world’s population gets to the point where we have little room left to grow food…

overpopulation.org/

I really don’t care about fetuses. I don’t care about prenatal or even postnatal infants. It is to our advantage that the minimum number of children survive. This means, if you are considering having an abortion, just do it. Don’t let your guilt stop you. Guilt is mostly for religious or spiritual conflicts that are … well… completely invalid when you consider how much life that one child’s death makes possible… or how much meat you consume per year.

Maybe I’m evil. I just say, kill what you can while it’s too young to take your food and kill you later. We need to get the world back down to about 5 billion people before I’m happy.

27

Silverdragon wrote:

If you don’t have the life skills to be a mother at this time, then why have sex? Don’t you find that a bit irresponsible? Anyway, having money or skills or whatever has nothing to do with being a mother but having love does. Nevertheless, having all the money in the world cannot prevent some sicknesses and even death. I assure you, people never feel they are at the right maturity level or the right income to have a child but that is never a right reason for having an abortion.

How do you know this, in most cases? This gives better off dead a whole new meaning. You tell those kids raised by parents who didn’t want them that they’d be better off dead. What does this say, in your opinion, of human life in general? Some people are worthy of life and others are not? Hitler thought the same thing. I not accusing you of that but it is not a long leap from here to there.

But it is not immoral to have an abortion? What’s your reasoning here? Anyway, it wasn’t against her will. She had the ‘choice’ in abstaining.

Why is self-determination a right? Really, I’d like to know the philosophy behind this.

It seems you have a ‘shitty’ life too but I don’t find that as excuse to execute you. Why make that an excuse for the unborn.

Cheers

28

I think this must be one of those situations you need to be in before you could ever possible know what you would actually do, and definitely not one I would like to see anybody in.

I think the days of Women in the kitchen are over! I know there’s still a lot of male chauvinism about, though we’re at least heading in the right direction. But to address the main point in the above paragraph. Broken Condoms aside, I think two people having sex at some point should spare a thought to the fact that this process’s primary function from nature’s perspective is to create new life. Yet from a personal point of view its about gratification and fulfilment.

‘I think that its just plain immoral and wrong to ask a woman to commit herself to 9 months of pregnancy.’ I have to say I find this amusing. If she has decided to have sex yet somehow doesn’t realise this can create babies, then I would say this is a shame? But if she does know the consequences of her actions, how can she feel upset when she finds out she’s pregnant? No one forced her into this act, it was her control over her body that created this pregnancy in the first place. Women and Men are different!!! No matter how much we all want to be equal, in some things this will never be the case. Sex & Pregnancy is one of these. When a man has sex he doesn’t have to worry about carrying a baby for 9 months, he’s just after his 9 seconds of fun. While on the other hand a Woman does have to worry about this. Abortion is a tool to help level the playing field, but it’s still not equal. Women have to take more care in the act of sex then men, because the outcome for women can be devastatingly different! It’s up to the woman to be more responsible in their attitudes to sex. Is it right to ask this of women and not of men? This question has no answer, as nature has dictated how life works.

Why is abortion legal during the first trimester but not after this? Why doesn’t the women have the right choose to remove the unborn at any point up to the birth of the child if she wishes, as it is her body? Why can’t she just remove it like a cancerous growth that will affect the quality of her life?

29

Hi Silver Dragon,

I’ll agree with you, but include a stipulation that abortion ought to be a last measure and not just another means of birth control. Abortion is never a pretty thing. At best, it’s no better than a lesser of evils.

I have my parents to thank for my life and I have my parents to blame for my death. In choosing to give me a life they also chose to give me a death. And given that the death is inescapable, the least that parents can do is to give their child a chance at a decent life.

As for the Christian element, I happened to see this bit of scripture recently quoted in a philosophical essay:

“I accounted those who died long since more fortunate than those who are still living; and happier than either are those who have not yet come into being and have never witnessed the miseries that go on under the Sun.” – Ecclesiastes 4:2,3

Hmm…couldn’t that be interpreted to say that abortion is preferable to a horrible life?

Regards,
Michael

edit: grammar

30

BOTTOM LINE

it takes a MAN and a WOMAN to get pregnant.

I think we can all agree that in todays world that sex is not preformed for the single role of procreation. I dont care what religion you precribe to or anything- sex has never been about procreation- it has that effect- but do you really think that thats it? thats all we do it for? I sure as hell dont.

As for saying that I am irresbonsible for being sexually active… wheres the mention of the men i must be slepping with?? These responses have made me feel that if I got prgnant it would be MY fault COMPLETELY- just becuase of my biological capability to get pregnant. what do you want me to think? because a man cant get pregneant he has no responsibilty over the mess he gets himself (and others into)?

As for raising a child on love… Its a nice sentiment and all but its pretty ignorant to think thats all it takes. I want MY kids to have chances, to be comfortable in their enivronment and to live in an encouraging home. I DO NOT want them to have to not go on school excursions, to be picked on for lack of anything, or to not be able to provide for them Both EMOTIONALLY and FINACIALLY.

I think that its pretty safe to say that if someone has picked abortion as an option,they dont want that kid- they are not ready in any number of ways to become parents.

Stephen, you talk of a Womans right to abstainence. You do not mentions the mans responsibilty to it as well. If Both a MAN and a WOMAN are acting irresponsibly why is it ONLY THE WOMAN who must deal with the consequence?

I think that self determination TO YOUR OWN BODY is deffinately a right. After all- whats rape if its not about having somethng done to you that you dont want to? Rape is another way of taking away someones self determination of their OWN actions. If i dont want to carry a child i dont want to do it- who are you (anyone) to tell me i have to?

Pax- A womans decision to have sex DOES NOT MAKE HER THE ONLY ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PREGNANCY. Yet again,the biological capabilty to have children does not mean that WOMEN MUST HAVE FULL RESPONSIBLITY OVER WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT KID. Guys have sperm dont they? without that sperm NO BABY (gasp!) why is it only down to a womans responsibilty when she gets pregnant? I dont understand this at all

The trimester thing is because of safety, once you get past that first trimenster it becomes more dangerous- i would also asume its has to do with the development of the baby- once you get further into a pregnancy it gets more obvious that its a human

31

i agree with you whole heartedly polemarchus, abortion should deffinately be the last resort, a woman has means for contraception, as does a man. I think that sex is entered into too lightly, and often people dont think of the consequences.

your bible quote is what my sentiments are all about, i know that a kid i have now will 100% have a crappier life than if i have it after i have a career, money, a life, some more responsiblity and the AUCTUAL DESIRE TO HAVE CHILDREN. Without those things i think i would be doing a dis-service to the child by keeping it alive for the sake of keeping it alive.

I want to be able to provide a whole host of things for my children. Not just in terms of financial matters, but also in terms of emotional well-being, life experience, and a safe and stable home. These are things that i cant not give whole-heartedly now. When i have children i want it to be right for the child, not for me- i think that me being depressed after an abortion is better than me having a child and srewing its life because i am not emotionally or financially capable to be a good parent at this time.

Go out side and look at all those kids that you see being treated badly, that dont have enough, that aren’t given the best oppertunities in life and tell me that we’re being humane and compasionate to them. I dont think we are.

32

What if we had medical technology to fully take a growing fetus out of the womb, at any point, without changing its development, with no risk of damage to the fetus, and support it mechanically until it was ready to enter the world and be adopted? This way, we can separate the mother’s well-being from the child’s development.

The child is now a burden only to the state, and its future parents will take it in by their own decision. It hasn’t committed any crimes or hurt anyone, and let’s say for the sake of argument that nobody needs it for food (just trying to be careful in my reasoning), research, or any other reason.

I do think it will be immoral, unethical, and downright wrong to execute the child in this model. So wouldn’t it follow that it would also be wrong to abort it otherwise (assuming it is causing no mortal danger to the mother)? I’m interested to hear any arguments agreeing/disagreeing.

33

This isn’t an ethical issue it’s a practical one. Why is it ethical to have a child at all, if birth ultimately means death? Or if you have a theological argument for that, why is it ethical to abstain from sex if we’re depriving the world, “God”, whatever of potential lives/souls, all those unused eggs and sperms.

The whole pro life thing is a morally bankrupt. The wellbeing of the social web of people living and interacting count for a whole lot more than some foetus cells we could grow in a test tube. If you feel it’s your duty to protect the “absolute” value of life, why don’t you go join the peace corps and make a real difference.

34

Yes…I think that in that case it is society’s responsibility to keep that individual alive. I pretty much agree with Polemarchus that legalizd abortion is a lesser evil, given the problems of overpopulation and the spectre of denying a woman’s autonomy. But we should never treat it casually…and I say that as a former fetus who is very glad his parents chose to keep him :wink: . I view aborting fetuses as a stopgap measure until artificial womb technology can relieve society of this huge moral dilemma.

Okay…that’s it. I’m not talking about this anymore.

35

im gonna just reply now without reading any others first.
this is an issue to everyone and my stance as a man is weird to say the least.
i know abortion must remain legal, not that i am a supporter but because stupid people like to screw without precaution. all the world needs is more stupid people raising stupid people. catholics and mormons believe that sex is for procreation and you must be fruitful and multiply.
my big problem is with the religious right attacking abortion clinics and trying to take away a womans right to chose. i think they would have a better affect if they educated the youth about the importance of birth control rather than condemning premarital sex as a sin.
i know a guy who is the product of a rape. he calls himself a rape baby and beats himself up constantly because he is his fathers son. this is very sad. it was not his fault in any way. his mother also harbors a lot of guilt because he cant handle it.
i have another friend who recently fell in love and got her pregnant. she wont get an abortion because her mother had one and has carried guilt ever since.
even my brother who has two kids got his wife pregnant and they had an abortion and to this day they both carry a heavy regret.
abortion is a bad thing but there are much worse things that can happen to a person. like being raised by parents that didnt want you or being given up for adoption and spending your whole life wondering who are my parents and why did they give me up.

BIRTH CONTROL EDUCATION IS THE ONLY THING WE HAVE

36

hear, hear!

37

As a woman and one who has dealt with this issue personally, I have to agree with many of the previous posters. Although I was lucky enough to find out that I was not pregnant, you’d better believe I would have aborted that fetus ASAP. Yes, that sounds callous. But I come to this conclusion rather easily after a couple of decades of being knocked around (physically and emotionally) by one such irresponsible young mother as some of you have described. And in the end, the decision to abort shouldn’t come down to God or morality, but to a true consideration of the human expense - the cost to the parents, and to the potential child.

The ‘when does life begin’ argument is cute, but it goes nowhere. Life after birth, now, that’s ripe for debate. All these pro-lifers get so wrapped up with life in the womb - and life after death - but they don’t give a damn about life after birth. The bottom line is, there are too many people in the world already. Take some measures to prevent yourself from contributing to the spread. If you can’t provide for a child, you shouldn’t have one.

Yeah, I like the guy I’m with now. He “gets” me and he makes me laugh. But I don’t want a kid, and neither does he. We’re both in university and dirt poor. Neither of us are in a state - financially, emotionally, whatever - to provide any sort of stable environment for a child. When I thought I might be pregnant, I fretted over the idea day and night, but I never wavered in my determination - we are now, and this decision was as much for his and my own sake as for the fetus’s - because I would not ruin three lives.

38

Unfortunatly we live in a world were people

-Have Packs/Broods of children
-WIth no way to provide
-Call birth control a sin
-Insist on tradition vs practicality

Abortion is killing, but we should be allowed the choice.

We do kill each other for less. And it does seem that many of humanity’s problems stem from a root of overpopulation.

Look at countries in strife. Ill bet that 90% have a large population of underemployed/unemployed youth in extreme poverty.

We are breeding to death.

39

in regards to “pro-lifers”
once the baby is out of the womb it is off of the love list
its ok to send those babies to die in the middle east
its ok to execute criminals
is “pro-life” an oxymoron in this sense

40

Yes it should always be 50% the man’s reasonability and to reasonable men it is. But a man can get on the first bus out of there at the slightest hint of the word ‘Pregnancy!’ while a woman can’t. When it comes to being practical there is no way a woman can escape her pregnancy she must make a life or death choice. That’s why the woman needs to take more care, because it’s her life that will be affect most. In a sense the man has only two choices: Stay and help, or Run for the hills. But the woman’s choice is: Have the child or have an abortion. There is no running away from the situation for her, but there is for the man. That’s my point. Men don’t have to be involved if they don’t want too. That’s not right but it’s a fact.

Unwanted Pregnancies create great stress on both of the people in evolved and especial for the woman. I think it’s better to prevent life then kill life and while the purest see no difference between those two things, I personally I do see a difference. If life is not created, it cannot be taken. Who am I to judge another’s existence, am I’m saying this even in light of my opinion that abortion is undesirable. Those women have made a decision that I will never have to make and I respect them for that, while I’ll petty the waste.

Personally I don’t see any difference between the two? Why draw the line there? Once the Egg and Sperm fuse potential is bore, while not classed by some as human, it is potentially and I believe that this potentiality should be given a chance where possible. I’m not outright against abortion, but I am against waste! and this I see as a great waste. No one knows the future even the best-laid plans of mice and men can go to rune! Yes a child has greatly increased chances of success if they come from a stable home, but there are many fine people who come from broken homes or single parents. To choose if a child’s future life will be good or bad is impossible. No matter how much we talked about the child’s future, there’s still the Mother’s to consider. There is many a case were Mothers have sacrifice their unborn child’s life for their own future, pregnancy just a complication in life that needs to be solved. Heck, the abortion is not even a big deal. I do think this is selfish, can they not put themselves into the same position as the unborn? Can they not empathise?

And here lays our dearly departed friend ‘Responsibility’, dead but not forgotten. But sadly people do forget about the consequences of their actions! God bless alcohol and the many children that are here today that might not otherwise have been. Again I come back to Woman wanting control over their body’s, yet still go out and get stupid drunk, have sex and end up pregnant. Then they have a why me attitude! “Why you?” “You got drunk sister! You lost control!” Sometimes it can be hard to find sympathy for the stupid, but that’s just one of my failings.

Yes, let us cleanse the world of those children or should we sterilise the adults? What do you think about a future where both male and female are neutered at birth? Then each must seek a licence if they wish to have children? Think of all the child abuse this would solve! And all that sex with no unwanted side affects. Hell! That must be heaven!

To state my stance one last time!

“Unprotected sex is for procreation or the stupid!!! Safe sex is for pure pleasure!”

I believe in the ‘Right to Choose’ like I also believe in the ‘Right to Die!’ But these are undesirable choices that one has to make and the only person with the right answer is the unfortunate one in that predicament.