Dear ILP, [advise me]

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

If anyone around here remembers me, you might be somewhat familiar with my problem. The problem is essentially that I’m an atheist in a Christian family and neither of us has adjusted to it well. I recently, in a sort of desperation, wrote my church about it. To give you context, I’ll post that below, rather than write another thousand words. Offer me whatever advice you have from whatever perspective you have, but please make sure to tell me where you’re coming from (“as an atheist…”, “as a pastor…”, “as a teenager…”, etc.).

The letter is attached, in PDF format.

Edit: PDFs are apparently not allowed. I’ll reproduce it below instead.

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I am not a Christian. I have not been a Christian for four years, going on five. I have, however, been attending the XYZ Church of MY_NEIGHBORHOOD for the past six years or more. My parents, who are understandably upset by this, resolved two years ago, when they found out about my disbelief, that the best thing for them to do was to force me to attend church indefinitely.

For the first month, it was extremely aggravating. For the second, mildly annoying. For the third, acceptable. Since then, the ritual of being shouted at for being slow getting ready (the closest thing to an act of civil disobedience I dare attempt), sitting through worship (a very uncomfortable experience for a non-believer), and then listening to a lesson targeting everyone in the building but me has become only more grating each week.

Two years later, at the age of seventeen, my parents still find it appropriate, and still believe it productive to force me to attend church. Today (in church, as it happens), I estimated that I have attended church against my will over 208 times since my change of mind regarding Christianity. Let me put that in perspective.

If in my later, freer life I were to refuse to go to church as many times as I will be forced to attend (assuming that I move out and am instantly financially independent on my 18th birthday), I would have to decline invitations to church 260 times. Granting that I would be asked to go to church approximately four times a year, that would mean that I would not attend church for sixty-five years after my eighteenth birthday. If you think such a prospect seems unreasonable, you’re right. You’d also be right to realize that the reverse (to force me to attend as many times) is equally unreasonable.

Being forced to do something for a longer period of time does not make it more palatable. It especially does not do so when I am this apparently near to the “freedom of religion” that my parents and teachers have gloated to me about with patriotic pride since my birth. While my presence in a nearby chair during the service may comfort my mother or father with their ideas of a cohesive family and serve a genuine emotional need, the reality of the matter is that it is damaging to our relationship. It has already placed in my mouth a bad taste for the church that will take many years to erase. As for the church itself, all I can offer the community by my attendance is a psychologically draining (and potentially offensive) lack of enthusiasm.

If someone of the church could explain this to them, maybe they’d believe it. If you would endorse or suggest an alternative form of “not abandoning God”, I would appreciate that as well. For example, I’m more than willing to do personal (meaning alone) studies of the bible, which I recognize as both interesting and influential enough to warrant reading in any religious context, and discuss them with my parents afterwards.

Sincerely,
Patrick C.

2

Damn, why don’t you just tell your family to fuck off?

How old are you? Do you have to hang around them? If you’re quiet about your position on the matter and they harass you then you need to draw the line somewhere. Tell them that they’re acting like lunatics and not giving you your space, and you’ll cut them from your life if they don’t accept your decision. That should get them to seriously reconsider. But there is no point in arguing with them, and if that’s the case, you will only feud more. My mother is a completely irrational moron who I could never discuss anything reasonable with, so I don’t.

If I was being ‘forced’ to attend church, I would absolutely refuse at all costs. Simply tell them that you’re practically an adult and you don’t need to be force fed a religion you don’t believe in because you are capable of thinking for yourself.

If they ground you, and make your life miserable, so be it. It’s your will against theirs, but you need to stand your ground.

3

I basically haven’t my family to “just fuck off” because they’re my family. My parents are the only problematic ones. My father is generally an asshole and I’m not really interested in maintaining a relationship with him at all after I move out. The thing is that I actually have a good relationship with my mother, aside from her religious and political ideas. My family is kind of under a lot of tension right now because my father is going through a phase, like he has in the past, of being a total asshole to everyone (as opposed to his usual crankiness). My mother’s reaction to this is obviously a lot of sadness and even loneliness, as other than me, she has no real connection to anyone in my immediate family any more. My sister is disrespectful, unappreciative, and often downright mean to my mother (and my father, as well). I don’t want to inflict the kind of pain upon my mother that it would to cut off her only real relationship at home.

4

I’m 18 Thursday.

Well, I guess that’s nice of you, but being nice isn’t going to make you happy, not push-over nice. I can see why you wouldn’t want to cause anymore hardships. You shouldn’t have to take on their responsibilities as parents to make peace in the family by allowing you your independence. They’re being unreasonable, pushy, and the ones who need to back down; not you. They have their problems, sure, but it shouldn’t fall on your shoulders.

You say your sister is more of the black sheep, does she go to church?

5

She’s not so much a black sheep as just the most inconsiderate. She does go to church. She doesn’t think about it very hard. She doesn’t like to think, learn, or read very much, even though she’s not stupid. For example, a couple nights ago she attempted to argue with me about drug laws, and when I mentioned the prohibition she said “What’s the prohibition?”. I think she’ll grow out of some of her selfish habits, but I’m more doubtful about her shallowness ever changing.

When it comes down to it, it’s pretty obvious that you’re right about my stance on the issue being apparently weaker than it should be. The truth is that I’m looking right now for a peaceful way to resolve the issue before I start drawing lines in the sand.

6

There must be some law where you live that makes it illegal to ‘abuse/harass/cause great mental and emotional stress…’ on a minor. Get a court order (restraining order), based on those grounds, prohibiting your parents from forcing compulsory attendence (brainwashing) at church.

Better yet, get ‘excommunicated’!!!
You won’t be allowed in the church door! Actually, you would, but you wouldn’t be allowed to partake of the cannibal stuff, but thats a technicality that your folks probably wouldn’t know.
They will simply get used to living with the antichrist…

Wow! Countermeasures! (Be creative!) Before ‘communion’, become familiar with syrrup of ipecac. On the fateful Sunday morning, suck down a can of Campbells split-pea soup. Take ipecac timed to work at ‘communion’ time. As soon as the canibal feast goes down, up it comes all over the first four pews, like in the ‘Exorcist’! Everyone will start heaving their breakfast sausage all over each other’s Sunday Shoes…
They probably wouldn’t invite you back.
Ahhh, that I could watch and join in the merriment!
*__-

Or, perhaps a bit of bargaining time. If you feel any ‘spiritual’ urges, you might offer that while they are in church, you will be pursuing your own ‘spiritually uplifting pursuits’. Perhaps that will satisfy them. OF course, when they are singing “a wretch like meeeee” you can be PARTY! PARTY! PARTY! Or, perhaps, meditating…
Hopefully, something offered makes some sense…
Sometimes you just have to bide your time. Statistically, you should out-live mom and pops…
Peace

7

pxc you are up a creek without a paddle for right now, I applaud your consideration to your family. You are doing the right thing by trying to keep peace. Just hang in there til you move out, Your body might have to be in church but your mind sure does not. Let it wander and plan your future. Zone out while you are there. Be grateful to spend time with the ones you do love no matter where it is. Soon enough you won’t see them very much if at all. Turn a bad situation into good by taking a look at the positives. Its not easy but, it is very doable. You have a good head on your shoulders you will do fine.

8

I’m an atheist, and I think that Kris gave some pretty sound advice. I’d like to congratulate you for your consideration of your mother and the selflessness that you clearly possess that lets you put up with an unpleasant situation out of filial piety. Family is an incredibly important institution, but because it is either so very present, especially during early life, we forget its importance or it is dysfunctional to a degree that it no longer serves its role. I think that sitting through Church is the right thing, even if it means zoning out. But why not try and enjoy the beauty of the ritual and the beauty of the building itself? Many Christian churches that I’ve seen are very beautiful and there is a great deal of comfort to ritual even if the basis of the ritual is remote.

Expanding on that theme, have you considered labeling yourself as a “cultural Christian” at home? It is admittedly less popular in the US, but you are already one so why not try that label on for size? You don’t believe in the tenets of Christianity, but you attend Church and so are involved in the Christian community. When your mother talks to you about Christianity, focus on that. Don’t lie and thereby give her false hope, but focus on your going to Church (if you think you can do it without too much rancor, you could even add for her and the family) and say that that will have to be enough.

However, I do think that you can strengthen your position slightly once you’ve had that talk. Your attendance at Church while you live at home is contingent upon her respecting your beliefs. You are going to Church with her because it is important to her, and she is important to you. Not because Church is important to you. If she can’t respect that, some degree of readjustment may be necessary in the relationship. Given my nature, I would suggest erring on the side of honoring your mother, but I am somewhat given to rebellion. It sounds like you might have the opposite problem and that achieving the mean might best be sought by standing up for yourself a little.

9

What’s wrong with church? Church is filled with pleasant, happy people and the songs are nice. The stories they tell aren’t necessarily true, but hey, they’re just stories. If you don’t like it, pop in your mp3 player and listen to a podcast or four.

10

As an atheist…

I was at a similar position, but I managed to get my family over to my side of the fence. They were raised communist and after '91 they started getting religious just to go with the crowd, so it wasn’t that much trouble. My parents are highly educated people and it was just a matter of asking them some simple ontological questions, and they came out explicitly saying No, i don’t believe people came from mud; I don’t believe it’s a sin to do x,y,z; I don’t believe a man came out of virgin, etc. I understand this is not similar to your situation, but I thought I’d mention it anyways.

As Xunz stated, if there is to be the level cohesion you want between you and them in your family, then they also need to put some effort forth towards accommodating you. Their beliefs are plainly stated exclusive of yours. Their beliefs or yours have to cave in a bit to the point where one belief is not exclusive of the other. They either have to stop being so christian, or you have to stop being so atheist, as you’ve been doing for 4 years.

My extended family here in the US, which consists of just 2 third distant cousins and their family, are highly religious: read, very christian. My parents can bare their religious intolerance of us, because my family still pretends to be christian, but I can’t…like you, I find it hard to endure when they explicitly ridicule and threaten me. Eventually, and I suspect because of this, there has been a falling out between us. I don’t go to meet them, and they rarely come here. I am just a whole different species in their eyes. I am something fundamentally wrong, and I’m not just saying that. They tell me that…and as they tell me that I have to stand there smiling, grinning, and nodding my head, because they’re guests in my house or I’m a guest in theirs, and because of this…because they’re so fucking bigoted towards anyone not like them, I don’t much care about them. I’d have no problem if they showed some respect for me, and didn’t treat me like the anti-christ (which I think they have to in order to send a message to their kids, but also they really believe it). I take it this isn’t what you want to happen with your immediate family, but I’m afraid–and I hope I’m wrong–this is unavoidable, unless they move down a couple of notches on the christian meter to the point where you are no longer seen as sick. You’ve more than done your part to accommodate them, and if they don’t reciprocate, then you’re more than justified in maintaining just a formal relationship with them from herein.

11

Hey Pxc, sorry - I autocapitalized you. :smiley:

Before advice time, can I ask you a question or two…?

Beyond a couple of hours on sunday, does your familly’s religion impact on your life in any other way…?

How much does it matter to them that you believe or develop belief…? I mean are they chanting round your bedside or whipping you with briars…? Constatntly crying because of your ‘hellbound’ state…? Or do they just quietly hope…?

Anyway, over to you.

Nice to see you here again btw. =D>

12

As a son who rejected his parents faith and whose first concern in doing so was his mothers well being:

Make sure your parents know you love them. I know it seems gross and squishy, but I think it’s important. For me, a part of what my parents went through, which I only realized later, was the feeling that they were losing me. When I rejected their faith, they saw it, and somewhat rightly, as a rejection of their authority in my life. I was starting to make my own decisions about truth and falsity, right and wrong, and I can only imagine that that’s scary as shit for a parent.
So let them know that you still care about them. One thing my mom worried most about, she told me later, was that I never shared my problems with her. For your entire life up until not too long ago, you came to your mom for everything. Now you’re becomming autonomous and she probably feels useless and abandonned. Give her a hug, tell her about your days sometimes, ask your dad for fatherly advice, and grin and bear what you don’t agree with about them, both because you love them, and because you know that on some level they’re doing what they’re doing because they love you and they’re worried about your well-being.

That said, don’t back down from your convictions. You believe what you believe, and you shouldn’t lie to them about it. On the church front, I think Xunzian’s suggestion is a good one: be clear that you’re going to church because it’s important to them and you care about them. Showing maturity will ease their minds about letting you make your own decisions. If you’re interested in the Bible, why do you need a deal to start reading it? If they see that you’re not shutting them down completely out of rebellion, but out of sincere, mature intellectual integrity, they might give you enough respect to make your own spiritual choices.

13

Haha, I’m glad to see you’re still around, too (but I disapprove of putting a translation in your signature picture, it’s icky).

Aside from social awkwardness and the knowledge that there are some things I can’t talk about without an emotional reaction of shutting down or exploding into sorrow with my mother, they don’t have me actually do much relating to Christianity. I’m not forced to read the bible (hah!); nobody in my family does that ( :unamused: ). Aside from attending church, I’m occasionally expected to participate in volunteer charities done by/with our church, which I usually don’t mind. Part of it is just that the degree of control (and even interest!) that my parents retain over my life has become frustrating and I feel this is one issue that they really don’t belong telling me what to do with. It’s all part of my wish that at seventeen I can finally play Big Boy and make Big Boy decisions… The time requirement of church is basically a non-issue, I just hate being there after so long. The pastor goes through a cycle ever year (there are certain lessons he does every year). I’ve known the cycle for two years now.

. . .

As for the way my parents respond to my disbelief, it varies between my family members. My sister’s opinion is best summarized as a jokingly accusing but seriously shallow “You don’t believe in God because you’re dumb, and also because you’re the devil trying to ruin our family.” My mother has cried, ever since she found out about my disbelief directly to and in front of me with lessening frequency but maintained intensity. My father is not very apparently religious, but claims to be a Christian. His response is generally to offer some true but mostly irrelevant piece of information like “You know, evolution and Christianity are not mutually exclusive.”

It’s funny how predictable people’s reactions are. I was at a friend’s family-and-close-friends-only birthday party Sunday. He’s also agnostic in a Christian family, and his extended family, like mine, is still in the “let’s buy him skeptic-gone-Christian books (that we’ve never read) because that’ll fix him” stage. I’m still moving out of that, although I do receive still receive those books occasionally.

Thank you all for your advice. I’m still awaiting the church’s response to the letter (email, actually).

14

It takes pain & patience to remove yourself from any social ideology. The closer that ideology hits home, the more painful it shall be.

You need time on your side. Start looking ahead for starters.

15

Wow. very touching post. I’m ten years older than you, yet going through a similar thing.

I’m a solid atheist, monist, materialist. I truly lost my ‘faith’ completely back in 2002. It has been a rough journey. As my avatar notes, I’m the son of a pastor. I love my father and family VERY much. They are good kind wonderful people. My dad is a great friend to my wife and I. The church community has always been good to us and a generally positive experience. But just because things may be comfortable, does not make them true.

My wife and I are constantly dealing with being atheists in a totally theist dominated community.

The question that I’m dealing with is this…

Do I love my relationships more than I care that people understand the truth?

This question rules my life right now. Every day, with friends, coworkers, bosses, family… I have to decide, “Do I just smile and go along with the bullshit that they are saying, or do I disagree and try to get them to understand?” Both sides to my delima (and yours) display love. I love my family and relationships, therefore I won’t press them on things we disagree about. On the other hand, I love my family and relationships MORE than if they dismiss me because they need to understand the truth… there is no God or supernatural bullshit. They are living totally deluded lives!

As for you going to church. Go ahead and go (my parents are always asking us to go). Since they know where you truly stand (unlike mine) you can show them WHY you believe what you believe. I’m always pulling out the bible with friends and family and showing them verses that they won’t even admit are in the bible. There are countless passages that you can have a lot of fun with. Even though it might not seem like it, you are sowing the seeds of doubt. Healthy doubt in absurd claims to reality. You are sowing the seeds of TRUTH AND REALITY!!!

16

Bane, good to see you around still.

I have to agree with you, Carleas, and Kris here.

I think part of the reason why church is so unbearable to you is because you are at the phase where you, in your heart, know that you’re wrong. You know you’re sitting in front of a ranting, delusional human being who actually believes, despite all odds, what he’s saying. And to sit there and be lied to while everybody around you drinks it up can be torturous.

I’ve been there. And I’ve also been through the phase of wanting the world to know that I’m right. But after many discussions with a lot of Christians, Mormons, Catholics (aka my girlfriend, never thought that would happened given I’m an atheist), I realized that it really isn’t that important to me that other people don’t think I’m right. I know I’m right, and if somebody else wants to believe something because it gives them comfort, so be it.

To use an example of Dawkins (or Harris, I forget), if I went to the doctor and had a life-threatening disease that would kill me in a matter of months, I’d much rather he tell me that than lie and say I was perfectly healthy and had nothing to worry about. But I realize that there are some people who really rather would never know they were dying. So be it. And a lot of people have religious believes ingrained when they are very young, making it unlikely they decided to be religious. I believe it was Phaedrus, another forum user, who said that their decision to believe was arational. Most people didn’t reason their way into religion, so don’t expect them to be reasoned out of it, plain and simple.

The rest is up to you. The consequence of rebellion and refusal to go to church…well, you know better than I. Or you can play along until you’re 18, if it means that much to you to maintain a healthy relationship with your parents. And, although it seems silly, if it means never talking about religion to your parents to have that relationship, it’s not such a bad thing. If they try to push their beliefs on you constantly, and it is that important to them, then you have to decide whether you want to be subjected to that.

17

How long are you planning on living off of the financial support of your parents? If it only for a while longer just endure it… If you are going to be living off them for a while it’s best to maintain good relations with them but if you are able to financially stand on you own you must decide which is more important: maintaining good terms with your family or pushing away the church goings along with part of your family BTW tell your sister that a manual for the brain is also needed for purposeful use of the brain along with the actual brain itself ( I really don’t like shallow people). I suggest you find a way to resolve the problem without hurting anyone but if you feel the need to sacrifice some of their well-being for yours don’t fell bad about it “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”

Sincerly,
The Bored Student - Nick

18

Hey Pxc,

Having read your reply, I can’t really improve on Carleas’ advice, save to repeat your family don’t seem like monsters, and you only have a year or so to go.

I was not forced, but taken I suppose, to church until I was fourteen, then I remember sitting with my friend david in the back of the car and having a conversation with him about how boring church and sunday school was, probably pretty loudly. After that my mum gave up. My father, like yours was never what you’d call an active church member. I’ve had a few theologic discussions with mum over the years - but as someone else noted - the decision to believe, if you could call it a conscious decision in the first place, is only very partially rational, and so largely resistant to refutation by any rational means. long term believers, and the fervently converted newbies, have far too much of their lives invested in religion for change to ever be a simple matter of “Yeah, there’s no proof you know, pascal’s wager, etc., can god make a stone bigger than he can lift blah, blah”.

It’s like trying to get someone to abandon their nice comfortable house for the street because the first stone they laid in its foundation was made of jello.

Not going to happen.

Anyway, I’d stick it out for a while longer. Hopefully at 18 they’ll say “Okay son, you’re an adult now, you may choose your belief for yourself” but frankly, there is no guarrentee of that, in the eyes of mothers, no-one ever grows up. So, in a worst case scenario have a plan B - I’d develop an interest, or hobby or activity or whatever outside the home, that your family can see is beneficial, and get as deeply involved in it as I could - enough for your family to see you are serious about it and it means a lot to you - and when it comes time to try phase out sunday church, rather than say “I’m not going to church anymore, it is a house of sycophantic hypocracy and I’ll have no part of your antiquated bullshit !!! ARRRGHHH!!!” and throw a wobbler - you can just perhaps engineer things so your new interest begins to conflict time-wise, with your church-going.

And so, this time with good conscience (or at least with ‘better’ conscience) both you and your mother/family can come to a happy ending. You will both have an ‘excuse’ to use to sidestep the essential conflict itself, which will hopefully stop things getting polarized into a “Oh yes you will” “Oh no I won’t” situation.

Anyway, all the best, hope this helps, or at least, doesn’t hinder.

Ps. Plz don’t develop an fervid interest in something like amateur vivisection or hookers, that probably wouldn’t get you in under mother’s radar.

19

Haha! Over the last two years I’ve actually become something of a Free Software enthusiast. I recently gave a presentation on LAN parties using Free Software at a state-wide conference, and I’ve been working to promote Free and Open Source solutions among friends. And of course, thanks to Free Software, I’ve been swept up in the Free Culture movement altogether. I’ll keep an eye out for those… other hobbies. :wink:

20

There you go, problem solved. (Well, fingers crossed). :wink: