Sadly @Ichthus77 has rage quit after l objected to a thread derail that tried to make me apologise for terrorism for the nth time this week.
I’d be interested to know:
Christian opinions on various antichrists as well as the ultimate Antichrist
How 666 applies? I’ve seen how it is applied to Emperor Nero but l’m sorry, that seems illegitimate even though extremely charming. NRON isn’t necessarily Nero. I think Nero means Black. NRON is an attempt to write that in Hebrew that doesn’t even sound like Nero and also it certainly doesn’t mean Black in Hebrew.
The Great Rapture / Secret Rapture
I believe this was copied from Islam a few centuries ago. I have read a similar quote from the Bible but apparently the Secret Rapture Doctrine in Christianity is actually not in the Bible.
'Abdullah b. 'Amr reported that a person came to him and said:
What is this hadith that you narrate that the Last Hour would come at such and such time? Thereupon he said: Hallowed be Allah, there is no god but Allah (or the words to the same effect). I have decided that I would not narrate anything to anyone now. I had only said that you would see after some time an important event that the (sacred) House (Ka’ba) would be burnt and it would happen and definitely happen. He then reported that Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said: The Dajjal would appear in my Ummah and he would stay (in the world) for forty - I cannot say whether he meant forty days, forty months or forty years. And Allah would then send Jesus son of Mary who would resemble 'Urwa b Mas’ud. He (Jesus Christ) would chase him and kill him. Then people would live for seven years that there would be no rancour between two persons. Then Allah would send cold wind from the side of Syria that none would survive upon the earth having a speck of good in him or faith in him but he would die, so much so that even if some amongst you were to enter the innermost part of the mountain, this wind would reach that place also and that would cause his death. I heard Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Only the wicked people would survive and they would be as careless as birds with the characteristics of beasts. They would never appreciate the good nor condemn evil. Then Satan would come to them in human form and would say: Don’t you respond? And they would say: What do you order us? And he would command them to worship the idols but, in spite of this, they would have abundance of sustenance and lead comfortable lives. Then the trumpet would be blown and no one would hear that but he would bend his neck to one side and raise it from the other side and the first one to hear that trumpet would be the person who would be busy in setting right the tank meant for providing water to the camels. He would swoon and the other people would also swoon, then Allah would send or He would cause to send rain which would be like dew and there would grow out of it the bodies of the people. Then the second trumpet would be blown and they would stand up and begin to look (around). Then it would be said: O people, go to your Lord, and make them stand there. And they would be questioned. Then it would be said: Bring out a group (out of them) for the Hell-Fire. And then it would be asked: How much? It would be said: Nine hundred and ninty-nine out of one thousand for the Hell-Fire and that would be the day which would make the children old because of its terror and that would be the day about which it has been said: “On the day when the shank would be uncovered” (lxviii. 42).
Reference : Sahih Muslim 2940a
In-book reference : Book 54, Hadith 142
We don’t hate Jews and Christians as such, but throughout history a lot of Christians and Jews committed atrocities against us. However, we deal with it only officially, via our nations, on a case by case basis - not setting up an algorithmic echo chamber feed on X or FB, getting angrier and angrier, then firebombing someone’s shop. That’s actually what people do to us.
Definitely curious who you refer to btw. Also, Christians and Jews have traditionally not been one bloc until Christian Zionism, l’d avoid it personally. Those ministries and Watchmen glorify war, killing.
Here’s an observation by Bart Ehrman for refutation:
“It can be amusing for nonfundamentalist readers who first encounter modern prophecy books to notice how many of them begin by indicating that all of their fundamentalist predecessors had been wrong: they were too precise in picking a date, or they misinterpreted this or that passage, or they were advancing their own agendas instead of listening to what the Bible actually predicts. But now, they say, in this book we will see what the signs are definitely pointing to. Often the author will insist these are not his own hypotheses but are the teachings of the Bible itself. The implication is clear: if you disagree with the author’s claims, you are disagreeing with God.
The invariable thesis of all of these books—that the Bible was not written for its own time but for ours—encounters a rather obvious problem: it would mean that the biblical authors who address specific readers did not expect them to have any clue what they were talking about. That’s not how authors, ancient or modern, work. Authors write for readers in their own time and place. When John addressed the first-century Christians in the church of Philadelphia in Asia Minor, he was giving them a message. He did not secretly intend the message for twenty-first-century Christians in the church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.”
The Prophet Muhammad’s farewell sermon indicated that Signs of the Hour will get clearer, nearer to the Hour (as will myriad other things he said - because God is beyond time, so his slaves are guided by a timeless being):
“All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly.”
Jesus would prolly agree with Ehrman, because he said similar. If someone gives you a date… lie. If they draw you to a particular person/location that isn’t obvious to everyone on the whole planet… lie.
Adding to my last post, because this is an entirely separate issue.
It can be for and within its own time, while also being for future, or all, or our, times. A few ironic things to me…
Ask, seek, and knock’s first initials spell ask, but only in English (s and z are admittedly close). Lazarus & the rich man can communicate despite being separated by a great distance, as we can do now. Jesus says (in synonymous words), “Can’t you see, Pharisee?” which is only a pun in English.
There’re more. Like the actual prophecies about the day of the Son of Man.
What is the most obvious difference between Allah and Jesus Christ.
The only difference between the two is for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish.
That is the difference.
In the Book of Revelation it tells about the final conflict between the forces of good and evil. It also tells about the history of the conflict from the birth of Christianity to the end of time and of course the ultimate author of the book is Jesus Christ.
We are living in a time when Jesus is to be made less of and we live in the most serious times in the history of the world.
Revelation is a story about restoration, it is logical and it is written to be understood, it uses symbolic language and it draws this language from the Old Testament, so without the Old Testament we would not be able to understand the Book of Revelation. Many of the symbols come from Zechariah, from Ezekiel, from all the prophets of the Old Testament.
The bible is the standard for the setting of character and “blessed are they that do his commandments”.
Obviously there is going to be a counterargument to all of these factors.
Why do people (even scholars do it) change the title from The Book of Revelation to the Book of Revelations? Could it be that the powerful symbolism distracts them from the unity in multiplicity?
According to Seyyed Hossein Nasr now perhaps the foremost living member of the traditionalist school and also recognized as a leading spokesman for Islam not only in North America but also world-wide, “ In the Islamic perspective, the oneness of God has as its consequence not the uniqueness of prophecy, but its multiplicity, since God as the Infinite created a world in which there is multiplicity and this includes, of course, the human order. For Islam, revelation and prophecy are both necessary and universal. Humanity, according to the Quran, was created from a single soul, but then diversified into races and tribes, for, as the Quran states, “He created you [humanity] from a single soul” (39: 6). The single origin of humanity implies the profound unity within diversity of human nature, and therefore religion based on the message of Divine Oneness could not have been only meant for or available to a segment of humanity. The multiplicity of races, nations, and tribes necessitates the diversity of revelations. Therefore, the Quran asserts on the one hand that “To every people [We have sent] a messenger” (10: 48), and, on the other hand, “For each [people] We have appointed a Divine Law and a way. Had God willed, He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you. So vie with one another in good works. Unto God ye will all return, and He will then inform you concerning that wherein ye differed” (5: 48). According to these and other verses, not only is the multiplicity of religions necessary, but it is also a reflection of the richness of the Divine Nature and is willed by God.”
The Quran (not Muhammed) is to Islam, as Christ is to Christendom. Does not the history of religions teach us that mental images we have of the Quran and Christ can be fashioned into idols and worshipped in the place of the spiritual reality they seek to represent? Recognition of this human tendency toward idolatry is what is behind Buddhism’s rejection of positive concepts for God and the soul. (Of course, Buddhists falls into the same trap when they mistake their mage of the Buddha for the ultimate reality he represents.)
They were meaningless typos—great! What interests me, what is the central symbol of Revelation—the Lamb on the throne— the beating heart of the universe that gets transformed into a new universe (heaven and earth) with the New Jerusalem.I suggested the mistake might be a clue. Revelation can be translated apocalypse. Would anyone say apocalypses? What about dissolution? as in the universe dissolving into nothingness before arising into being again in an endless cycle? Does it all end in the New Jerusalem , or could that be the beginning of a new cycle?
What’s important is the centrality of Christ. John symbolizes his vision in terms familiar to the people of his time. Because the symbols are archetypes of the collective consciousness each generation of believers can map them onto the circumstances of their own time. What remains the same is Christ symbolized as the lamb of God, the embodiment of sacrificial love at the center transforming the whole into the New Jerusalem, beyond time and space where God, the unchanging Absolute, is all in all.
Only when suffering is so violent, unbearable, and absurd for a people would they invent a myth like that.
Has a barbarian or a truly free man ever thought that he and everyone else should need to sacrifice something to achieve some kind of salvation? Shirley not. He’s having too much fun to think anything like that. Instead, he’s concerned only with getting his kill count up so he gets a good seat in Valhalla.
I feel like i should take a shower after coming into this thread. Ew yuck.