find the reason within

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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I am going to suggest some propositions here, the atheists in the crowd will deny it fervently, and I fully expect that.

  1. We are spiritual beings that inherently wonder about the nature of the universe.

  2. Leaders of the past and present use this inherent wonder to take advantage of people, making spirituallity seem bogus.

I’m not going to try to even ponder about god in this post as most images of god are anthropromorphized to make god appear closer to man, and thusly more capable of punishing man’s ills.

I’m not going to talk about “sin”. Sin is control. We can agree that certain behavior is bad without attributing that behavior to sin.

We all have a built in potential to be “one” with each other. we have the ability to “tune” into another person and feel what they are feeling. this is usually referred to as empathy, and usually someone who is overly empathetic is thought of as weak. Empathy is a strength. Empathy is one of the key components to growing and maturing as a spiritual being.

thoughts and or ideas, additions?

2

1:What leads you to that conclusion?
2:What does that even mean?

3

Depending upon what exactly you mean by “spiritual,” I can’t imagine why an atheist would take exception to what you said. As a matter of fact, I think that’s a pretty concise and accurate description of religion.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a “God Gene” in us that creates a genetic predisposition to create deities. Can anyone think of a single culture of reasonable size that didn’t venerate some god or supernatural spirit, even if just the Earth or the elements? We do seem predisposed to feel this, just like we’re genetically programmed to fight and fuck.

As for the long history of people using that against one another, who would try to argue that’s not true?

4

hello.

if you can define ‘spiritual’ more specifically it would be a help. i agree with everything you said on my definition of spiritual.

but as an athiest it’s probably not the same as yours.

so how do you define ‘spiritual’?

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because the other conclusion was me rejecting spirituality and KNOWING I was intentionally rejecting it.

there’s no substantive way to express a reason to have the same conclusion as me. All I have to guide me to that conclusion is my own experience and as we know in the road of life, we all have to drive into our own potholes before we find nirvana.

that religion is the end to the means not the means to the end. Once you bow to that god, the search for meaning is meaningless and you’re leaving the driving to the bus driver known as the pastor, rabbi, etc. He’ll hit a pothole and tell you “don’t worry it’s part of god’s plan”.

Some of us jump off the bus or never get on the bus. Some of us afterwards totally reject any of the ideas that are being touted by the people on the bus.

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round. Whether you believe in it or not. and the ideas on the bus do mean SOMETHING, otherwise they wouldn’t get so many riders on the bus. Total rejection of everything having to do with the bus is just going to get you down the dirt path of denial.

While that can be fun to be a total “goat”, it’s missing out on our potential.

Ah, but what grand purpose would such a gene serve without god? We could be far more productive if we worked 7 days a week vs 6. We could be far more open (though there are closed minded atheists.) minded.

Can anyone think of single human culture that didn’t eat? Maybe the fact that god and spirituality is so integrated into our past and our culture and our genes and our very being, is in itself the key to the reason?

Or are we going to be closed minded and say that such a thing is impossible?

Not in the “teen spirit” sense, more in the “meta-” sense.

6

Does the spiritual part even have to be there? Why not simply: “1) We are beings that inherently wonder about the nature of the universe.”

Also, I’ve read your replies, and I’m still not sure by what you mean with “We are spiritual beings”.

7

Would you agree to this definition of spiritual: an organism emotionally reacting to external stimuli? For example, we see a sunset and emotionally react with (awe, wonder, beauty, etc.), or we see a loved one in pain, and emotionally react to that stimuli with empathy. Does that adequatly outline what you mean by spiritual?

However, if you accept that definition, then I want to ask what you think about people who have emotionally detached from the external world? Have they lost their spirit? If they have, how are we to classify such people? Are the emotionally detached, at that point, distinct ontologically from the spiritual people? Furthermore, (don’t know if you accept the definition but…) if such is the case, can we speak of man universally?–your claims are, afterall, universal.

8

According to Merriam-Webster…

Spiritual
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : INCORPOREAL
3 : concerned with religious values

Now we can go on to argue the existence of the essence of what it is to be “incorporeal.” However we’re not here to do that… nor are we here to be concerned with religious values… but as relating to the spirit…

Spirit
1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT b : SOUL 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : GHOST 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
4 : the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
6 a : a special attitude or frame of mind b : the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something
9 : a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness

We can come to the conclusion that when it is said that we are “spiritual beings,” in an athiestic or agnostic sense, we are under the specification of the 6th and 9th explaination abiding to the meaning of “spirit.” All other meanings are bound around speculation and irrationality. The 4th meaning of “spirit” is juxtaposed between the unexplained and the rationally sound.

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Hi. Non-atheist here. Long time listener, first time caller.

Scythekain, I of course agree with point one and not sure about point two. By point one perhaps you mean that since we wonder about things which are non-material, we must have non-material intellects … or the universe is absurd thought games – contrary to premise.

mrn

10

Hi,

the centre of our being is our breathing and our heartbeat. Both are disturbed when we are unwell or when we are afraid. Both increase when we are excited or thrilled. Our breath reveals how we feel and is incorporated to all medical diagnosis. Spirit comes from Latin ‘spiritus’, breath, from ‘spirare’, to breathe. Just like from Greek ‘pneumatikos’, ‘pneuma’, ‘pneumat-’, wind.

Therefore Spirituality is something that is connected to our inmost being and the basics of life, which makes it no surprise that the Hebrew and Aramaic interconnect Breath/ Wind/ Spirit. It is by means of concentrating on our breath that we can begin to find access to the essence of our being and the incorporeal Spirit with which we can communicate without language.

It is then not surprising that the effectiveness that many people could have is lost in safeguarding the outward appearance instead of the essence of being. The outward appearance is regarded more important than inner harmony or inner values and the markets promote this illusion, despite the fact that millions of people seek recuperation from this kind of life style.

If you were to ask me, what is the biggest problem with modern society, it would be the overall ineptitude of people through their lack of inner harmony and the produce of waste as a lack of connection with the larger world, which, of course is precisely how the market doesn’t want to appear.

Effectiveness is revealed when people get things right first time and is achieved by taking the required amount of time – which is often not a lot longer. There is less waste, less effort and more prudence. Our modern society measures effectiveness by haste, which pretends to be speed. The thought that “the Way is the aim” is something perverse to the modern mind, but the human mind learns by doing things in an effective pattern of behaviour, not by continuous trial and error attempts.

Spirituality is about strengthening the character, giving it purpose and structure, using the holy truths that mankind has discovered over millennia to affect a better future. Spirituality accesses a source of wisdom that is inexplicably external but common to us all, even though it is coloured by the influence of society. Access is generally intuitive, aided by various techniques of meditation and relaxation which sharpen the attentiveness.

Much like the usage of the “other” side of the brain can give people the impression that a lever has just been rolled over with a loud “clunk”, so do people who experience access to this Mystery speak of “rebirth” and life having a new foundation, direction and fullness. If we experience such a fullness of life, we can even be satisfied if it is not so long.

Of course, the impatient point to the quick answers to impending problems, but prudent planning, rather than quick answers, reduce the need for sudden reactions.

Shalom
Bob

11

bob,

I’m constantly astounded at the depth of your posts. You get across with words what others (including myself) cannot come close to touching.

I agree with everything you wrote and think a new topic should be started on one area in particular;

I agree with you, this is the biggest problem in modern life. This is why more and more people are becoming thoughtless and shallow.

that’s pretty close to what I mean, yes.

point two means that religious and non-religious leaders of the past and present take advantage of this inherent wonder, and cause us to glaze over the reason.

why do we have to put it into an atheistic or agnostic sense?

Fear, makes us do the strangest things. You fear that by accepting that we have a spirit, you’ll be acknowledging the very thing you can’t stand. Religion.

I think Bob’s post covers what the spirit is.

and I was introduced to some interesting proof. Hypnotic past life regression. There’s absolutely no seeding by the hypnotist. (seeding being the hypnotist implanting images into the hypnotized mind.)

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scythekain wrote:

I’m just curious, for clarification, do you think that organized religion is constructed/made for the purpose of control?

13

Nice bandwagon fallacy.

You still haven’t answered the question, what IS a spirit, and what possible reason do we have to think we possess one?
What human behavior requires a supernatural explaination, precisely?
Assuming you can answer these questions, how would the existance of a spirit cause anyone to acknowledge religion? It is hard not to acknowledge religion, it is everywhere and it’s followers are very real.
If you meant that the existance of the soul would have to be mutually exclusive with a given religion being true, I would ask that you justify this somehow.

14

absolutely. Organized religion helped organize society.

you’re assuming that because something is unknowable and undefinable it doesn’t exist. what would be the reason?

I can no more define a spirit than I can define what it’s like to be a proton travelling at the speed of light. it’s beyond our current realm of experience and thusly we cannot begin to grasp what a spirit truly is without first letting go of this realm.

unjustified phobias. Phobias that aren’t based on experiences from this life. It’s quite an interesting phenomena.

“ghost houses”. Houses that are for all intents and purposes “haunted”. I have first hand experience with this and saw a ghost push over a tall dresser. (my parents can back this up, I was about 3 at the time and saw an thing of energy come from behind the dresser and push it over. my scream woke up my parents and when they came in the dresser was pushed over.)

“soul mate” (male or female companion) meeting someone and feeling not only that you’ve known them before but that you’ve known them all you’re life.

and like I said in the previous post, past life regression through hypnosis.

I think some agnostics/atheists make the two concepts mutually exclusive so that when you’re talking about spirituality, or any of the other concepts that “religion” teaches, you’re instantly into regression and repression mode, where you can’t accept what someone says about the subject no matter what.

are you willing to acknowledge that there are some things in the world that are beyond any sane and/or reasonable explanation?

15

No, I’m not, don’t build a straw man. And although you ‘sort of’ answered my first question, you totally ignored the second. I will rephrase it.
What reason do you have to believe such a thing as a soul exists?

That is just an extention of the ‘god of the gaps’ mentality.
Since we don’t know, it must be magic!
indeed…
I would be willing to bet, even without a solid knowledge of modern psychology, that there aren’t a lot of experts atributing phobias to supernatural causes.

I’ve seen unexplained things similar to what you describe. Firstly, that isn’t human behavior. People that atribute these things to being ‘the spirits of the dead’ serve only to keep the entire feild of paranormal research as a big joke. I lean toward PSI phenomenon, as a possible explaination. I do not pretend to know, though, as my gaps are fine as they are, and require no god to fill them.

Emotional rhetoric believed only by the very young and/or naieve.

Which has never been verified, which it could very easily be were it factual. Has always smelled a little funny to me.

Regression? Regressing to a past state? That doesn’t even make sense.
Repression? I am a blank slate to any information that can get past my evidence standards. I have never seen anything to repress, no backup to any claim of the spiritual other than ‘other people believe it too’
If you could provide a reason to accept any of this as any more than ethereal rambling, I am all ears.

No, I have no reason to think knowledge has limitations.
There is plenty we haven’t explained yet, but so what? It is a never ending process. Todays magic and spirituality is tommorows documented and proven science, just like the magic of yesterday is the common knowledge of today.

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Dr. S

When science can answer and explain the following question it will go a long way to proving your assertion.

17

We still haven’t even figured out the mechanics behind a cats purr. Women are infinitely more complex and confusing, and we may just need to invent some new methods, but one day…!

18

Indeed, it takes a brave person to follow their own heart. It takes a real strength of heart. Especially when most people will walk all over you, as scythekain says , because people mistake great empathy for weakness.

But one day , The stone that the builder refused will become the head cornerstone.

19

That day has already come and gone.

The reason is complex and not easily explained. in other words I can’t think of a way to describe it in words, but tentative in my “what do you think of…” phrased it brilliantly… I know I have a soul because I can feel it while I’m pushing the limits of what it means to be “human”. I Know I have a soul because of the empathy I feel for those lost to madmen.

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Where did it go to?