Illegal Immigration

This is a heavily loaded issue, which is not going to go away.
It is global in extent.
Much of Europe is also struggling with it.
As the numbers grow, the political fall-out in the future looms large.

The economic argument for banning illegal immigration is simple enough.

It takes away jobs from legal residents and over-loads the infrastructure with aliens who pay no taxes for its upkeep.
Building walls and campaigning for more police to patrol the border is the current American government policy.
Amnesty, which was first granted in the late 1980’s is up for review again. It has the advantage of registering aliens in the tax base.

The moral argument is more complex.

If there was no work at all, Mexicans would not come in the first place.
They take the most menial jobs at below the legal wage.
Forced repatriation splits families who have children born on American soil and are therefore legal citizens.
By not making a big issue out of it, America retains goodwill with a close neighbor.

Question 1. Is it morally right to deny work to impoverished neighbors?
Question 2. Is the current policing policy the right approach?
Question 3. Is amnesty the right answer?
Question 5. If none of the above are right, what other suggestions are out there?

  1. I don’t think it is ever morally right to allow anyone who is impoverished access to basic human needs. Is it feasible that america can just become the goodwill organization and just support the rest of the impoversihed world…uh not likeley without a complete change in the way we think.
  2. It would seem to me that history has proven walls and borders don’t work, the amount of effort going into sustaining them could be well spent elsewhere.
  3. amnesty is tricky because where do you draw the line. To me the field in america has to be leveled between rich and poor before people can see their way clear to let others share at the trough. There is a lot of atagonism on this issue due to the fact that many in America don’t have basic medical care and services and resent what is seen as freeloaders taking what they should have.
  4. Good question…you first. I believe that this is a huge cauldron that is brewing away and not near enough attention is being paid to it, and it is only going to get worse as population increases, and no I don’t believe any answer is going to be simple. It basically encompasses everything that is going wrong in the world. Territorial conflict.

2 choices.

  1. kill 'em all

  2. let them in, and they can live in every liberal democRAT’s house. we can deport the liberal democRATS to cuba or china

-Imp

For Question #1. Is it morally right to deny work to citizens, and instead favor impoverished neighbors?

For Question #2. The current policing policy has proven itself a failure. Therefore it requires change.

For Question #3. Amnesty will never be the right answer. History has already proven this to be so!

For Question #4 (missing 5?)

The illegal immigrants, especially of the “south of the border” persuasion are refusing to actually melt into America. They are instead trying to change America into their filthy ecology’s! Becaue of this, the illegal immigration issue should be seen more as an illegal invasion issue!

Wont it be nice when your child gets called away in the next draft that his job will be taken by a Guest worker? Someone who is NOT required to defend this nation, but instead reap all the benefits without some of the responsibilities?

I find that the notion of Non-Citizens holding jobs while I can drive around in almost every city and see people beggin for food is a great disservice to our Nation! The idea that my employer has been required to post crap in spanish to convenience illegal workes who can barely understand their customers is obscene!

I have found that the new policy Latinoism! This means that if a beaner is not being catored to, above and beyond all others there is something somehow wrong with America!

I have seen Prinicpals removed from their jobs because they now are required to know spanish! I dont recall even ebonics being a requirement of principals when that fad was runing around!

The minutemen have the right idea! Soon I hope they become the REAL minute men! Taking their arms to the border and using their 2nd ammendment right to protect their states from an invasion! And I do mean real defense of the State… shoot after they refuse to turn around!

We need to ditch the law that allows offspring of non-citizens to become citizens. Canada ditched that and they’ve had less illegal immigration problems. It’s not that hard to come to America “on vacation”, give birth on the plane or while you’re over and BAM! Your kid is a citizen. wtf???

Real estate along the Southern California Coastline has become prohibitive.

The Baja peninsula has nearly two thousand miles of thinly developed coast line with the climate just as sublime.

What about making it an international zone with America and Mexico actively involved in cooperative development? Workers from both countries will stream there.

The tides in the Gulf of California develop over 5 billion HP. Enough renewable energy to light up both Mexico and the USA. How about a huge tidal energy development project as well?

Enough work and energy for millions for decades with masses of goodwill on both sides of the border. :smiley:

Taken from my blog:

Long before Christopher Columbus “discovered” America in 1492, there was a Viking settlement in what is now as Nova Scotia called “Vinland”, named after the great amounts of grapes said to grow there by the Norsemen who discovered it. The Norsemen had come to this strange new world for the same reason many later European colonists would - to wrest control of the abundant natural resources of the region from the native inhabitants of the area, whom they called “skraelings”. Try as they might, however, the warlike Vikings simply could not dominate the “skraelings” (known today as the Dorset), and thus were forced to flee the area and the entire continent within a few years of establishing their first colony in Vinland.

To my mind, this interesting historical curiosity neatly parallels the current controversy over illegal immigration. Both the Norsemen and those we currently deride as “illegal immigrants” braved dangerous voyages to a strange new land in search of prosperity - for this, I can do nothing but admire them. Certainly, the quest for self-improvement brought the immigrants into conflict with the native settlers of the region, and yet, there is no need for it.

We, Europeans, are all illegal immigrants. We took, through treachery, trickery, and the gun, every inch of land we now know as the United States from the Native Americans - and yet even they are not “native settlers” of anything; in truth, we are all immigrants, having immigrated out of Africa in search of new lands to tame misty aeons ago. We are native to nothing; man is a wanderer by his very psychological makeup, constantly struggling with himself, others, and nature in an attempt to refine and hone himself. As I’ve said, life is change - he who does not change does not grow, and he who does not grow stagnates. This is as applicable to such human constructs as a “nation” as it is to the individual man.

Thus, I ask the nationalist to reconsider his position on the current situation. Are you not yourself an immigrant or a decendant of immigrants? Do you not believe that, through the act of immigration, our nation has not been anything if not improved? Indeed, without immigration, even illegal immigration, our nation would not exist. Is it worth it to keep out the masses of unwanted, unwashed sheep at the expense of the few lone goats to whom all progress is owed? Do not kid yourself - most people of every social group are worms, fit only to wallow in their own wastes. However, in every group, in every nation and race and rung on the social heirarchy, there are always a select group of people with the power to pull themselves above the herd, and by this act gain the strength to pull their fellow men up with them.

I am forced to question the concept of nationalism as well - in truth, there is little I am more opposed to. Patriotism has been the source of more death in the twentieth century than any other human reason for killing his fellow man. The State is an arbitrary creation formed by the herd for its own benefit. The notion of politic itself is but an extension of this - an excuse for the weak to strive for stability and stagnation, for they fear all change. Please understand that I am not an anarchist - anarchy, by its very nature, is unstable; because most people are weak, the anarchist “state” will either quickly degenerate into complete Social Darwinism or will coalesce once more into a herd-dominated state. I am apolitical, as was Nietzsche before me - my focus is upon the individual struggling to overcome his fellow man by overcoming himself, regardless of the political situation of the nation he resides in. The truly strong will resist the shallow impulses of power and patriotism and religion - of stagnation - which the weak thrive upon. The only State I could endorse would be that which not only is fearless in the face of change, but is designed in such a way to allow for all types of changes necessary to the survival of the individuals which compose it - sadly, such a State is merely a pipe dream. Democracy is far from what I dream of; though it allows freedom for the masses, they inevitably vote the platform of stagnation each and every time. Every party, at its core, is composed of one doctrine - that of, again, stagnation.

But I fear I digress, and should finish it up. In closing, let it be known that immigration is not to be feared by the truly strong - not only is it admirable to brave the unknown in search of betterment for the self and those loved by the self, but the change brought by such immigration is absolutely essential for the continued longevity of any people. I only wish others would reach the same conclusion.

I think most people put their thoughts down on this in the other immigration thread in the rant house somewhere…

But to answer some of these questions:

2: no
3: the right answer is that no single policy is going to solve this problem. There are more issues to the debate than just legalizing those who are now in the Country.
5: (what happened to 4?)

  • reform NAFTA so that huge subsidizies aren’t forcing farmers down South out of jobs in the first place and also acts to create a level of comparative advantage, instead of protectionism that exists under the farm bill.

  • reform minimum wage laws in the US

  • punish firms who don’t hire documented workers

Regards, Tommy

If they assimilate then everything is good. If they don’t then we have major problems ahead. America is a country, it is not a giant ATM machine.

Thank you! Yes multiculturalism has it’s benefits, but if Americans allow every goddamn person from another country, especially illegals, to come in and demand that those who are already here change our ways, our culture will be destroyed. Many liberals would bring up the point of us white folks being “illegal.” I disagree, there isn’t one nation out there that hasn’t done something horrible to create their nation and her borders. Secondly, and most importantly, European settlers in North America is a text-book example of foreigners demanding that the “incumbent” change their ways.

What culture?? With all due respect we are merely a hodge-podge nation. No matter what we assimilate some facet of various cultures whether those whom we “borrow” the ideas from assimilate or not.

Most immigrants take jobs that us fussy Americans do not want to have while of course some do but it is no different than those Italians, Irish, and other New World settlers did when they arrived. I find it amusing how people refuse to accept the roles their ancestors played and trump the moral high ground.

1.) I feel that denying work and stopping work are differing things. With all due respect us American’s are becoming profoundly lazy and moving towards the roles of management etc. All the while we are losing manufacturing jobs and wonder why things aren’t made in America anymore…well American’s make piss poor quality items due to our labor/unionization and our sheer capitalist plight. I certainly agree with making money but if we reformatted our manufacturing zone maybe we would be able to use the immigrants for a postive push.

2.) Why does it fail? Because people fail often and hard. Personally I think there are far more important things we should worry about. The Guadelupe family coming over the border is the least of my concern.

3.)I do not believe amnesty is the right answer

(number whatever) People disgust me with there “America is holier than thou” attitude. No nation is superior, no God is mightier, because they all come from the same place…our mind. Borders were not made naturally they are imaginary lines we place because of our fears.

Astral: have found that the new policy Latinoism! This means that if a beaner is not being catored to, above and beyond all others there is something somehow wrong with America!

Wow, a racial epitath how intelligent and profound. And no, they are certainly not catered too they strive just as hard as the Asians, Indians, and other minorities to improve there quality of living. And if you feel jaded well than that is a personal issue…get over it. I often do respect peoples thoughts when they border on the sane but your fear of foreigners (and their language) is certainly not that of sane. Logic is a great thing when used, you should try it instead of insulting a group of people that have been around longer than yours. Kthxbye!

What culture, you ask? The culture that made the United States different than Mexico, for example. The more cultures we let in, the more we will separate. United we stand, divided we fall, correct?
America wasn’t a hodge podge in culture, only in ethnicity. Big difference.

OK perhaps you misunderstood my statement about the hodgepodge. Now, let us take something that American’s deem as its own: Rock and Roll. One may say this is an entirely musical venture established in the US but in reality it is not. One takes a part of blues which is derived from folk and that is from gospel which is derived certainly not from the US. But most likely rather by the slaves in the Carribean “No idea is original” is something I firmly believe in. Cultural borrowing makes a culture but to say it is original in my mind is a fallacy. Japan prior to its current format borrowed ideas from Korea, China, and other South East Asian nations and created a spin on it all. Does this make it unique? Sure. But does it make it original? I don’t believe so.

America is meant to be divided in the essence that every individual has propietorship (sp) over his own domain; being mind, spirituality, and physical freedoms. America is unique yes but certainly not an original. If I turn on the television I see a great amount of culture from BET, CBN, MTV, G4TV, and even Nick. The Afro-American culture, Christian, young caucasian (how I view MTV), video gamers, and children ( currently with a heavy emphasis on Latino culture i.e. Dora the Explorer).

As far as the culture being so vastly different than Mexico you should spend some time in a.) Commercial spots in Mexico b.) Southeastern US. There is not as much of a difference as one would think.

No educated person claims rock and roll to be of American origin. What became American Rock is what they may be thinking of.
And we all know we have slight difference in culture and it’s worth noting that they are not equal economically. There needs to be one dominant culture, one dominant language or we have chaos.
Originality isn’t the point, being on the same page in society is. I own a business, I will not do business with companies that hire illegals and there are more and more people like me acting on this issue.
You act American or I will do what I can to keep you poor and hopefully you take a hike.

I respect your right not to work with those who hire illegal immigrants. But this should be done because of the moral/legal standards not because of a disdain for a people. They are people too no? Do they not have families?

When we have only one dominant culture etc. it is done so in the name of opression and xenophobia certainly not in the name of order.

Define acting American for me.

Yes, the illegals are people so they have the capacity to change their own mess. It’s not about a race, mind you. A Russian illegal is the same as a Mexican one to me.
The definition of acting American begins with obeying it’s laws. It ends there, also.

Ok, I accept your response and respect your position Muscular :slight_smile:

I think the question is whether or not we really want to continue the steady stream of illegal immigration from a country whose citizens dont have the ability to reform their own country. Let immigrants come into the country legally and prove that they just wont leech off the many government based institutions such as school and healtcare.

No Illegals --------------->>>>> No Burritos.
(You better think twice America.)

Oddly enough, since I have worked in the restaurant business there would be alot less cooking of most food since the majority of the cooks (at non-Mexican) locales.