I was reading something earlier in a previous post about how you must first perform an action before you can know of the feelings in the aftermath.
ie: In order to feel guilt or know what guilt is, you must first perform an action that can cause guilt.
So does this not also mean, that in order for Jesus to know what Sin is. He must have commited sin himself? Though throughout the Bible of the new testament Jesus is said to be completely sinless, and free of such evil that he is equal to his Father (God), yet the bible also says no one shall be cast outside of the church but brought it for shelter or sanctuary away from evil. Though Jesus eventually in the new testament throws people out of a church for having turned it into a partial black-market selling with pagean coins. So would this be a sin against the church, therefore a sin against God for throwing people out of the church that supposedly keeps evil out? If Jesus and God are of equality, then does this also mean that God himself has commited some kind of sin… I mean he did kill off the world with a great flood, so does this now make God a Sinner for killing the humans he loves so much. As well as being an imperfect God for allowing such corruption to go on in HIS world? How can a God of such perfection, allow so much corruption that he must kill off his own creations to start over. Its kind of a conflicting topic but could prove to be an interesting one.
I remember back when I realized one of the first precepts that made Christianity bogus in the first place that resided within the belief structure of the faith. More specifically the Apostle’s Creed which dictated that Jesus went to Hell for 3 days before rising. The end of the third day by which Jesus was to rise from the dead and then to Heaven, is celebrated on the Christian holiday of Easter. It was clear to me that it did not make sense for one so “pure” and “sinless” to go to Hell upon being crucified. Also, even more so as the Christians believe that Jesus was God incarnate, would it not be contradictory for God to go to Hell? The whole three-in-one belief only makes things more confusing. Indeed, what reason could Jesus have gone to Hell if he were: a. the son of god, b. god incarnate, c. selfless and sinless, and d. murdered by the romans and jews on the cross…
It really is narrow-minded how sometimes we tend to describe God’s existence/personality or lack of thereof, with the same perspective/respects as we describe each other as individuals/human-beings…as if to imply that He is as a premise humanbeing and therefore He either fits into our perfect bubble in as far as logic is concerned, or that in the event that He fails, he simply doesn’t exist or is a sinner or whatever.
Yeah I knew those churchies didn’t really want to be around me…I was too much of a freethinker! It makes me wonder sometimes, what if I did something very religious like walk into a church during it’s service and throw the main cross down from the alter saying that everyone is a sinner for breaking the second commandment…heh.
I find it pretty funny that, God (assuming his existance) placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and stated, “Do not eat of the Tree of Knowledge”, now assuming that God is also All knowing and All powerful, would he not know that Eve would be tempted? Some christians would say, “Well God gives us free will to choose”… If this is so, then wouldn’t a God be pointless if we have a choice? He becomes no longer all Powerful the moment he gives away a free will to choose.
One verse in the Bible I found quiet interesting when I was wondering through John 8:44. It says starting off, “You are of your Father, the Devil, and you want to d the desires of your Father” … Is it not represented in the Christian world as the Lord God being the Father? Or have they now managed to combine the Devil in with this “fatherhood”?
“The father whose sons you are is the Devil; and you desire to do what gives him pleasure”
Such contradiction in such a short verse… and once again the Christian layer of faith has made one more Crossing Road that leads eventually to contradiction where Up is no longer Up nor Down nor left nor right, but rather just, and pure within what the faithful call Jesus… and I call Human Imagination taking toll on a definition of why we are here.
I find it pretty funny that, God (assuming his existance) placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and stated, “Do not eat of the Tree of Knowledge”, now assuming that God is also All knowing and All powerful, would he not know that Eve would be tempted? Some christians would say, “Well God gives us free will to choose”… If this is so, then wouldn’t a God be pointless if we have a choice? He becomes no longer all Powerful the moment he gives away a free will to choose.
One verse in the Bible I found quiet interesting when I was wondering through John 8:44. It says starting off, “You are of your Father, the Devil, and you want to d the desires of your Father” … Is it not represented in the Christian world as the Lord God being the Father? Or have they now managed to combine the Devil in with this “fatherhood”?
“The father whose sons you are is the Devil; and you desire to do what gives him pleasure”
Such contradiction in such a short verse… and once again the Christian layer of faith has made one more Crossing Road that leads eventually to contradiction where Up is no longer Up nor Down nor left nor right, but rather just, and pure within what the faithful call Jesus… and I call Human Imagination taking toll on a definition of why we are here.
lasko the bible has been translated too many times and has been interpreted in too many ways. and it has nothing to do with god so dont be atheist because of it, just come up with your own crazy theory that fits the evidence.
I think we run the risk of losing something valuable when we attempt to take every word in the Bible literally, search for glaring contradictions, and then dismiss the whole account as bogus. (And, too, I’m always wondering at the motivation behind doing such a disservice. I’ve noticed that people who do so always seem just a bit too gleeful, as if there’s an ax to grind somewhere, and not just a desire to search for truth).
If we consider the Garden of Eden story, for example, more as metaphor than literal account, then I think it becomes a bit more interesting. What if the story is simply symbolism, of man’s turning away from God, thus bringing the concept of evil into the world, taking it from theory (the opposite of what’s already in existence, i.e. God and good) and making it manifest? The ramifications are huge including, as you’ve observed Lasko, the now evident concept of free will and what consequences that may bring. And maybe that’s the point.
I’m not following, by the way, why free will makes God pointless. Maybe you could elaborate on that a bit. I can see that it would necessarily erode His power and I suppose you couldn’t label God (literally) “All-Powerfulâ€, but why does that make God pointless? And isn’t it possible that it may have been God’s desire to give some of His power to us, thus making us partners in creation going forward? Any way you slice it, the nature of God is a big concept, endlessly fascinating, I think, and full of limitless possibilities. I think it strains reason to expect that man was able to cover it all in a single book. Will you find contradictions and conflicting information there? Of course. But does that, in and of itself, make Christianity a groundless religion (as seems to be the underlying contention of those who would criticize the Bible)?
the religion is groundless because the book is so convoluted. the religion takes things out of there for no reason, and they take things out that dont even actually come out the book at all. they say god requires you believe that jesus died for our sins, but does it even say those words in there?
does it really specifically say that if you dont go to church you rot in hell? welllll then why do christians say that? because of a little thing called Tradition that they reserve the right to change whenever it gets unpopular? this is common knowledge and christians still exist? barf!
screw mainstream christianity, screw the bible. if quakers wrote a bible describing everything that makes their religion what it is, and describes everything a human is expected to do, guess what that bible looks like:
its a pamphlet!! theres no contradictions, theres nothing in there thats the slightest bit close to being hard to believe. NOTHING.
its not hard to make an altruistic religion dedicated to saving the world. the thing thats hard is making a religion that claims to be altruistic but actually ends up selfishly serving the dispensors of the religion. i mean seriously, christianity claims to want to serve all people equally and make them equal, and they have a vatican! seriously they are pretty talented, but they dont fool me.
that said, the bible is actually full of cool symbolic stories like adam and eve. the devil is your father if your a selfish bastard. if we didnt “eat from the tree of knowledge” and start organizing our agriculture and centralizing it under selfish rulers, and creating objects worth stealing, there would be no evil and no suffering. lots of worthwhile symbolism in there basically destroyed for the sake of selfish, golden chalice drinking dirt bags.
Its not that he’s pointless when it comes to him giving us free will to choice, but it does make him a bit obsolete considering if we all chose the path away from him and chose to not believe in his existance… He would no longer exist, but if he chose to Make us believe in him and gave solid proof other than Authors who wrote on his account several years later, then the Christian belief would be standardized in the world as a solid one. The New Testament most like all fictionous books are written by Human beings, who have a tendancy to stretch the truth, and make stories a bit more overpowerful than they truely are. Not to say this always happens but its alot like “the grape vine affect” People hear one thing and then eventually it turns into something else…John got a new Dog… eventually turns into John got married to his dog who turned out to be Sallys’ long lost puppy. People need something to make them feel better and of worth to other people psychologically we try to create a false sense of worth for ourself. This associates to the Bible quite well in the sense that these stories written by the apostles were a bit stretched out and are contradictory to one another. One Apostle believes this while another believes this happened. Its all about interpretation… sometimes this contradicts other interpretations… which creates tension in a religion such as Christianity… who have no other proof accept the Bible.
Well I’m not sure what would constitute or be properly regarded as “solid proof.†The very fact that the Bible exists might indicate, it seems to be, that there’s something of God in existence for us to observe, even if just the idea that He may exist. I would agree with you that the interpretation of that something, undertaken by fallible human beings, might be open to abuse (intentional or otherwise) and therefore result in contradictions and “tension,†as you put it. The standardization of Christianity is indeed problematic, as would be the standardization of any set of beliefs by and between human beings with necessarily differing perspectives and idiosyncratic presuppositions.
Still, I think about the larger picture and I wonder about the spirit behind the Bible. It seems to me that the fact that the Bible exists and (even in its worst case) leads us to discussions of this sort, does anything but make Him “obsolete.â€
how is that a contradiction? if God was the first sentient being to witness sin from an outsider’s perspective, why would he have to commit sin to recognize it? you people are idiots.
and, by the way, the “you must first perform an action before you can know of the feelings in the aftermath.” only refers to humans. while Jesus did take human form, he was NOT HUMAN.
“you people are idiotsâ€? I mean, I’ve disagreed with Lasko here as well, and I think you and I might be in agreement here, creation imperfect, but… “you people are idiotsâ€? I’m not sure how that helps.
We are idiots but you are a christian and a Morrison fan?
Ha, talk about contradictions.
Nice apologetics by the way. However they don’t hold up. Jesus was human but wasn’t human? Must be lovely to have Jesus be human when only you need him to be.
Although you may not agree with what I said, I did not say that it was my complete belief, I should have said these are things I have noticed that could be more contradictions in the bible and I’d like to hear what everyone elses opinion was on it. Don’t try to bring me down because everyone here might be bashing your religion… its not our fault that christianity is but a mere dot on the scale of the worlds history in a complete overview…And its just like a Christian to try and state, “Jesus wasn’t Human… but took Human form” statement… of course he wasn’t Human… that way Christians can explain why and how he did all those God-like things of healing. You Christians go through life begging for forgiveness to your God because of your Sins, but in the End you get no where… You say, “Forgive me lord I have sinned today” and No matter what tommorow and the next day after that you shall do the same until the day you die… all for nothing… As a matter of fact I meet christians daily and speak with them daily who have a way with always thinking God will forgive them no matter what… I like to call these Christians, “One of those Christians”, who believe… Oh well if I have sex with this person it will be ok because God will forgive me… I am only human and can not control my sexual desire that for some reason God put inside me so that I can try and control it and praise him for showing me my wrongs" I call bull shit on this because for 16 of my 25 years of living I was Christian so don’t try and push your, "Well your not Christian and don’t know the Bible " bull shit. Now I’m just rambling on so now I’d like to hear more about the inhuman Godlyness of your Xian God and hear the excuses you have to come up with about alot of Xian ways.
I agree with this. So as to not take your words out of context, you were referring to those looking for contradictions, but it is not they who are most troublesome. Yes, anyone who ignores the allegorical meaning is blind to the true message, but fundamentalists are guilty as well. It is the fundamentalists who are attempting to apply literal interpretation of the Bible to everyone’s lives. As it relates to Genesis, the campaign to teach creationism in schools is but one example.
