Lies About Religion

Hi there,

Your reply goes quite a bit off topic regarding what l was trying to say - which was about pure divine revelation, versus human accretion. You go into particulars about the revelation, and also separately about power politics in the shadow of revelation.

I shall quickly reply though:

  1. The verse does not assume the Prophet knew how to apply the law of Moses, in fact the Qur’an explains in various places that the Prophet was not taught such that he composed the Qur’an himself. This is the disjointed narrative of the debunker who will, always, debunk. To the debunker: the Prophet must have spoken to a fisherman, and pearl diver, to know the particulars of high waves at sea, and the darkness at the depths. He received emissaries from the meat industry or medical community, to learn about developmental biology, and the production of semen, the origin of bee’s honey, and so forth. He added a few cryptic verses about the Speed of Light without explaining the Speed of Light was encoded, because well, for the giggles. It was all guesswork though, a fair guess and it turned out fairly correct actually (spot on actually). Then of course he deftly dodged assassins or somehow persuaded them not to kill him. Confronted with enemies he said “wooo l’m scary, be scared”. They were scared and thus were defeated. He saw Jews, naturally got jelly, they said they were Chosen but waaaahhhh i wanna b chosen 2. So he said let’s be friends. They said no. He made a cry-cry and then separated. Or was it with Catholics? I heard he was a Catholic. But anyway. He also added stuff correcting the Bible, and never repeated mistakes (cough cough metal skydome, cough cough some guy sodomising his own dad, cough cough some guy making it with his 2 daughters in a cave and amazingly getting them both pregnant successfully and then the 50 shekels rape-for-marriage contract etc. he left all that out. oh Wait what was the subject. I forgot. Listen, your Copycat Hypothesis, that the Prophet Muhammad copied Judaeo-Xtianity, is disjointed, forced, and defamatory. By all means say what you will, but you really need to have serious evidence. Not begging the question, having the conclusion first and then working backwards. That is exactly how Christians today are mysteriously concluding that the Prophet / Islam / Muslims are the antichrist, because, well, they are, they have to be, so you know … they just are.

  2. The Qur’an did not revise or correct the Law of Moses, in one or two places it reminds us what the Law of Moses stated, that’s pretty much all the Qur’an does. The Qur’an is a new revelation, in a completely new format from what l can tell, unless the Psalms could be considered similar. You even admit this in the same breath re: Karen Armstrong.

  3. You then explain ways in which Judaism degenerated from the original Revelation, to explain that my explaining that original Revelations degenerated into unsanctioned private enterprises, doesn’t ring true. This is surely self contradiction. Let me also remind you that Judaism degenerated into many different forms besides Pharisees. I know also of: Sadducees, Herodians, Zealots (inc. Sicari). Unsure where to place Essenes but l think they were also equally a heading.

The Temple is central to Judaism but l’m sure you would differ and l’m unsure it matters here.

The ass bearing a load of books could also mean the books were the Torah, but then l don’t want to directly attack people bearing the Torah. I wanted to attack the human accretions solely, thus l wanted to highlight libraries of irrelevant nitpicking discourse born by pack mules rather than link Torah to an ass. That was out of deference and also, each verse of the Qur’an could have multiple meanings. I carefully stated “I feel…” not that l was laying down the sole interpretation.

You may have carefully researched and found that ancient generations didn’t speak of Rabban / Rabbins. However, my Monotheism-First theory would have predicted that anyway. Because Rabban / Rabbin means “Lord”, and that is either forbidden or shaky ground to call another human that, except perhaps if they are a feudal lord perhaps?

  1. The Prophet’s views on Jews didn’t change noticeably in any way l’m aware of. That’s the revisionist debunkery again, see above re: Prophet supposedly getting jelly of chosen people status, and so going his own way when they refused to cut him some kind of deal. This is a naive thought process and you’d be better to drop it or at least, for goodness’s sake, procure evidence or, well, proof. I know you won’t because you can’t. The Qur’an has fairly large tracts abrogated. Did you know that? You’ll now say you do. But l don’t think you’re aware how much was abrogated and indeed, erased. Actually erased. What is left? Open the Qur’an at any point, the cances are you’ll read something about Moses, Abraham, Lot, King David, Joseph. Most likely Moses. If the Prophet were just jelly and had a hissy fit after somehow being rejected over licensing of a chosen people meme (which we affirm by the way - that the House of Israel was indeed Chosen, but failed, but still, the Jews are key to the End of Times, where it will ultimately be Christ the Hebrew, vs. Antichrist the Hebrew) then why oh why didn’t he clear out all the stuff praising Hebrew prophets? There were many non-Hebrew prophets also in the Qur’an, some not even in the Bible. We had enough to go by, so why keep Jews / Hebrews in the Qur’an if it was all made up by a man who got jelly of Jews? Please my friend, leave it for the debate, take me on in an official debate.

  2. Re: equal rights so long as Jews remained politically supportive - what does that even mean? The deal was that those allied with the Muslims would not attack the Muslims in their own state, that is treason, then as now. No matter which country you’re in. If you read teenage / gangster power politics into that, then you’re saying treason is a lifestyle choice that triggers some guys into jealousy that you don’t wanna be their friends no more. Facepalm.

@Bob @felix_dakat l invite you both to a concise three-round debate. I’ll have to retire from the forum after that. To me you each represent a different strain of Revisionism.

Bob: You represent Reason. I had considered your stance to be American Way but l’m mistaken. I see from a post elsehwere that you denounce the Humanist focus on worldly achievements. This reminds me of the motto of Am-Way: Deeds not Creeds. So l guess you’re Universalist, in fact l think you may have declared yourself to be Unitarian Universalist in a post somewhere?

I’m guessing your argument will be more nuanced with spiritual discoourse.

Felix: You represent hard Logic. You seem to be pure Atheist, l’m guessing your Revisionist argument will rely solely on hard facts, which you will insist can only have one interpretation, or at least, overall can only have one interpretation.

First of all, I am not interested in a debate, because I disagree with opposing arguments being decided with a vote. I will give you your opinion, accepting that, like every tradition, there are good and bad parts, appropriate and inappropriate views, updated and outdated claims. The problem is that you can’t accept that. For you there is a right and wrong, and wrong according to your argument, means billions of people who make the wrong choice are condemned.

You are right though that I am a universalist. In other words, someone who believes in the fundamental unity of all people, emphasizing our shared values, moral principles, or spiritual truths that transcend cultural, religious, or national boundaries. Like many universalists, I advocate for inclusivity, equality, and the idea that all individuals have inherent worth. I believe that we should promote human rights and global cooperation, although I am reserved about speaking about universal salvation.

Secondly, I do not denounce a “humanist focus on worldly achievements” because I don’t believe that this is the humanist approach. The humanist approach emphasises human dignity, reason, and agency, focusing on individual potential and ethical responsibility without reliance on religious doctrine. It values critical thinking, science, and compassion in solving human problems and promotes the common good through social cooperation and justice.

Thirdly, If you think that Felix is a ‘pure atheist,’ then you haven’t been paying attention.

I based my Yahwism thread on current historical research. On that thread, in an attempt to steel man your position, I recently cited scholars who think monotheistic trends came earlier. But, you haven’t responded to my posts. If we were going to debate, we would probably learn more if we attempted to assume each other’s opinion. But, I admit I probably know less about Islam than any major world religion because, like most Westerners, I haven’t found it particularly attractive. Nevertheless, I do appreciate that Islam has been a path to nondual awareness for some. And, I am open to learning more about it through dialogue with you.

I don’t condemn billions of people. My job is to worship God like any other person.

The debate isn’t decided by a vote. It’s not officially judged at all in fact.

The point is to formalise the discussion and frankly, for everyone to see in one thread, me shutting both of you down, completely.

I was quoting you from another thread. And whether felix is spiritual contrary to what i thought, okay, but he seemed to be espousing a complete debunking of monotheism. Whch leaves me at a loss as to what he believes if not atheism.

But it’s irrelevant. You both have different angles.

I want the debate to show your different views (and what l perceive as your mutual cavilling over irrelevant details). But yes, ultimately l want the debate to show how l rapidly and decisively shut both of you down :slight_smile:

As l mentioned elsehwere, l was aware of Yahwism since around 1993 when l was a youth. I only because more religious in the years since then. You and felix seem to think Yahwism was giving me a downfall. Smiles softly.

I quit the thread as it wasn’t mine and l was dealing with very large portions of text and my own replies were yet larger and it was eating up my time.

Please let’s channel it into a succinct debate. It’s not about the intricacies of Islam it’s about Monotheism as the First Format, and how it degenerated into the twisted forms that you claim influenced it.

If some idiots create illegal power hookups from the national grid to grow weed, would you say the flimsy wiry ad hoc hookups going into junkies’ attics were the initial format? And then the National Grid formed organically out of that as some sort of side-cult later development?

National Grid = the original force of Monotheism.
You’re basically saying the National Grid formed out of the junkies’ illegal hookup, the latter being the degenerate forms that came later.

Multiethnic, multicultural, multiracial systems necessitate more authoritarian, totalitarian methods of imposing cohesion.

Nihilism becomes popular when populations reach a certain size and level of heterogeneity.
Abrahamism was for Hellenism, in the west, what Buddhism was for Hinduism, in the east.

Now we are moving to even more multiracial systems necessitating the elimination of the last divisive idea - god, as defined by the Abrahamic triad.
This ideal - Platonic - must be secularized and made abstract.

That’s your hypothesis. What non-biblical, non-Qu’ranic historical evidence do you have to support it?

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Good question! On second thoughts the main reason for wanting a formal debate is that everything is in one place in a tight format, otherwise l misattribute comments and the narrative gets scattered and this is unhelpful to participants and audience. I’d like to keep the conversations with me in one place as it’s an interesting topic.

We can do that, of course. But, we are already caught in an either/or polemic that doesn’t do justice to the situation. If God is both immanent and transcendent, than why wouldn’t we expect revelation to have both emanative and evolutionary aspects? According to the Bible, prophesy never occurs in a vacuum. It is always a response to an existential crisis on the ground. Isn’t that true of Muhammed’s revelation as well?

“Historical revelation is not revelation in history but through history. Since man is essentially historical, every revelation, even if it is mediated through a rock or a tree, occurs in history. But history itself is revelatory only if a special event or a series of events is experienced ecstatically as miracle.

Such experiences can be connected with great creative or destructive events in a national history. The political events then are interpreted as divine gifts, judgments, promises, and therefore as a matter of ultimate concern and a manifestation of the mystery of being. History is the history of groups, represented and interpreted by personalities.

Both groups and personalities can become mediums of revelation in connection with historical events of a revelatory character. The group which has an ecstatic experience in relation to its historical destiny can become a medium of revelation for other groups.

That is what Jewish prophetism anticipated when it included all nations in the blessing of Abraham and foresaw all nations coming to Mount Zion to adore the God of Israel. The Christian church always has been conscious of its vocation to be the bearer of revelation for nations and individuals. In the same way, personalities connected with revelatory events can become mediums of revelation themselves, either as representatives or as interpreters of these events, and sometimes as both.

Moses, David, and Peter are described as representatives as well as interpreters of revelatory events. Cyrus represents a revelatory happening, but Second Isaiah interprets it. Paul the missionary represents, while Paul the theologian interprets, a revelatory event. In both functions all these men are mediums of historical revelation. And all of them, as well as the events themselves, point to something that transcends them infinitely, to the self-manifestation of that which concerns us ultimately.”

Paul Tillich, Systematic Theology, vol 1

This prophetic or “avatar” principal is also maintained by the Vedantists of India:

“Arjuna, whenever righteousness is on the decline, unrighteousness is in the ascendant, then I body Myself forth.
For the protection of the virtuous, for the extirpation of evil-doers, & for establishing Dharma (righteousness) on a firm footing, I manifest Myself from age to age.”

— Bhagavad Gita 4.7–8

Hi sorry but l really do think l have a moderate IQ and so much of your pasted quote goes right over me. Also philosophical terminology gets a little involved past a certain point.

I’ll say this though:

  1. Revelation is what God decides it to be.
  2. Revelation doesn’t have to be evolutionary. Non sequitur.
  3. The Qur’an is the final revelation in a series. There you go, evolution.
  4. The Qur’an itself evolved as an accumulating set of verses and chapters. There you go, evolution.
  5. The Qur’an also eventually abrogated parts of itself. This is why Muslims know Surahs (Chapters) as Makkani (revealed in Makkah) and Madani (revealed in Madina). This was one argument l forgot to include in the discussion about Makkah not really being Makkah. Reference to Surahs being of Makkah or Madina are given at the chapter headings of many, possibly most, Qurans, next to the chater title. This is because Islam evolved as it went from the Makkan phase, to the Madinan phase and we need to refer to the city of revelation to understand full context of each Surah. I think at least one Surah is hybrid between the two cities. So there you go! Evolution.
  6. Finally, at least one large tract of a chapter has been completely erased to my knowledge. That’s even more evolution for you!

So, while it’s not implicit that a revelation must evolve, the Qur’an certainly did and l’m glad that God didn’t make it a simple case of read the book —> go to heaven.

The Book instead became intertwined with the life of the Prophet. It gained a living dimension, and not just that, it made us intimate with what the Prophet went through. Suffice to say, l wouldn’t wish being a prophet on anybody. It wasn’t something you’d bosh up in the library as revisionists seem to think. It was a life of fear, horror, action, redemption. He broke down in tears and hugged the infant Husain when the Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) informed him Husain would be murdered. Can you imagine knowing that? Both of his grandsons, Husayn and Hassan were murdered. And no, lest yo ask, the Prophet Muhammad didn’t get a book deal out of it, nor did he pocket hard cash. He died wih a debt and some body armour used as security to repay the debt. He slept on the floor etc. Frankly, your revisionist authors made more money by inventing these backstories about the Prophets.

P.S. Our Prophet was no avatar. He was human.
18:110. Say: I am only a mortal like you. My Lord inspireth in me that your Allah is only One Allah. And whoever hopeth for the meeting with his Lord, let him do righteous work, and make none sharer of the worship due unto his Lord.

Replace “Allah” with “God” in that last quote. The source l used must have re-touched the translation by doing a find—>replace for “God”. This is sadly typical of what ESLs get up to. That is, speakers of English as a Second Language. Which l am and am not.

It seems that from your POV, the Quran fulfills the role, or takes the place of, the avatar. Does it declare itself to be the final prophesy or do others make that claim for it?

If one denies the evolutionary revelation of God, one makes God less than the omnipotent creator of everything. As a matter of science the universe is still in the process of creation and this creation is its evolution. The first and the last “book” that reveals God is the evolving universe itself. It’s a living book that continues to reveal God every nanosecond to those who have “eyes”. This is the divine immanence of God as embodied by nature.

Hi there, nope and l make this same argument about those who say Jesus was an avatar of God so that God could experience getting nailed to a cross (or beating the forex guys up).

The cross, the grass on the hill, the clouds, the people the romans the jews oh the humanity … the universe is all an avatar. This is even now claimed by holographic universe theorists more or less, right?

There’s a link here discussing that before creation there was only Allah:

It is valuable because it narrates something very hard to find, which is 100% true, but the Salafists, via Ibn Taymiyyah, repudiate it:

Quote: The False Narration of ‘He is Now as He Was Then’

The deniers among the Jahamis and others who followed their path in denying the divine attributes added something odd to this Hadith for which there is no basis. They said: “Allah was and there was nothing with Him, and He is now as He was then.” What they mean by that is to deny what the Lord, may He be Exalted, has affirmed for Himself of rising and descending.

Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

One of the most significant foundations on which these pantheists, heretics and claimants of true gnosis rely is what they claim to narrate from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), according to which he said: “Allah was and there was nothing with Him, and He is now as He was then.”

Let me say unequivocally, that to say: “He is now as he was then” is absolutely correct and not heresy.

Allah was alone before Creation. And now, there is still only Allah.

Also, more regarding creation being an avatar, at least the physical world:
018.007 Lo! We have placed all that is on the earth as an ornament thereof that We may try them: which of them is best in conduct.
018.008 And lo! We shall make all that is thereon a barren mound.

There is no before and no after existence…this is one of the lies propagated by nihilistic dogmas, like the Abrahamic triad.
Temporal designations only make sense in existence, because existence is dynamic - changes, and time is how we experience change.

What is “outside” existence is, by definition, non-existent…and only “exists” as a disconnected ideal in the platonic cavers of the human skull.

@felix_dakat

Just so you know, the Salafists, foremost among them Ibn Taymiyyah hate this opinion (that God was originally alone, and since creation, he is still alone) because they are have imbibed Atheism, materialism.

They constantly cite multiple verses in the Qur’an which state Allah rose above the Throne (l think this was upon completion of creation). So, they posit, the Throne was an object. And so, God had a body.

Ibn Taymiyyah was universally denounced by Muslim scholars during his life, which was during the Crusades.

Today they call him “Shakh ul Islam” or The Teacher / Doctor of Islam.

I have read furthermore, and it’s entirely logical if you subscribe to Atheism, that God’s bottom must bulge around the Throne, because the Throne cannot outsize him.

References to superstitious documents do not constitute evidence, nor a rationale arguments.

He agrees with me. He’s defending the perennial philosophy which is what I am espousing.

Seyyed Hossein Nasr believed that perennial philosophy is a universal knowledge that transcends religions and time. He believed that it’s a way to study religions, especially Islam.
Key ideas of Nasr’s perennialism

  • Universal truth

Perennial philosophy is based on the idea that there is a universal truth that’s expressed in different religions.

  • Primordial Tradition

The Primordial Tradition is a block of principles that are revealed through traditions and revelations.

  • Spiritual realization

Spiritual realization is possible through traditions, which include methods, rites, and symbols.

  • Symbolism

The language of perennial philosophy is symbolism.

Nasr’s perspective on religion

Nasr believed that the existence of different religions is not evidence against the Primordial Tradition. He believed that all religions are united by a common substance and source.

Nasr’s work

Nasr is considered a charismatic spokesman for perennialism.

I agree with all the above points, which is what I am arguing for and have for years on this web site.

I love Nasr Hossein and Sufism. But:

Philosophy can guide you to the truth but it cannot take you there. It is a horse but at some point you must dismount.

Philosophy is like football, that’s why dogmatic Theologians hated it and they had a point: because there’s no absolute right or wrong about it, no absolute winner.

But we can say that this philosopher or that concept, consistently wins the debate. Why? The criteria to me are logical fallacies. Look to whose arguments are thick with fallacies. They are dishonest even if unknowingly. They have no counterarguments and are being (l hate this phrase, it’s for show-offs) cognitively dissonant.

There is universal truth in the Human Intellect. It is the silvering of the mirror on which the epiphany of God manifests. It manifests on the entire mirror and even the glass reflects him, but the actual silvery-type layer is the acme of it, the best of it. That’s the human intellect.

So even false religion manifests something of the truth. It doesn’t mean all religions are true-true, but they are all revealing of something or the other.

Even a drill rapper or a fat slob eating one pizza too many before his gut literally explodes, reveals something of the Epiphany.

Sufism embodies a lot of core human ideals. These can be catalogued in beautiful books, as indeed they are. There are about 100 l wanna buy.

But as Idris Shah told a budding disciple bursting into his office clutching one of his publications: Throw the book away.

So you see: Sufi philosophy won’t have every truth. And it doesn’t matter that a Primordial Tradition that maybe has every truth, has every truth. In so far as the spiritual quest is concerned, all that matters is that a person is selected.

The alternative is the way of Simon Magus, ascending up by his own power then crashing back down. This is not just a stinking wizard, it’s all of us, so long as we have the ego in charge, from football hooligans to politicians to philosophers - we all end up crashing back down to earth after a brief stint. “Die before you die” the Sufis say, kill that ego. In a roundabout way that also means “ditch your erudite ecumenical block of principles”.

Same line of thought destroys what you wrote about Spiritual Realisation and Symbolism.

Can anybody be better than my mommy? She was just a housewife and a simple woman who was a slave to her children, no Spiritual Realisation, no Primordial Tradition, no Symbolism - yet l am confident she is in heaven. I don’t care which part of heaven, any will do. Can you ask for more?

Religions are about control.
Offering comforting lies to the masses is a form of seduction.

It uses reality as a threat to force men into collectives based on their shared anxieties.

And please, never stop ignoring me…but continue to post.