Madonna-Whore Complex

“Where such men love they have no desire, and where they desire they cannot love,” Sigmund Freud wrote back in 1925. The founding father of psychoanalysis coined the Madonna-whore complex – a condition whereby men view women as either saintly, virgin Madonna’s or sexual “whores”.

In essence, the effect of Madonna-whore on a relationship is an inability of the man to maintain sexual arousal within a committed, loving partnership. In his psyche he categorizes women into two groups: women he can admire and women he finds sexually attractive; the former he loves, the latter he devalues.

Dr. Patrick Suraci, Ph.D., and author of “ Male Sexual Armor: Erotic Fantasies and Sexual Realities of the Cop on the Beat and the Man in the Street” explained the origins to Alternet:

“Historically men had a dichotomy in their perception of women. In the past, men, especially teens, had the idea that they had to marry a ‘good girl’ - a virgin. They only had sex with the ‘fast girls’ or ‘bad girls’. They waited until marriage with a ‘good girl’ - a Madonna, before engaging in sexual activities with her. Literally, sometimes they went to a whore for their first sexual experience. The advent of the pill changed the way women approached sex and thus men had to also change their views to accommodate women”, he told Alternet.

From then on, Dr. Suraci explained, women were as free to have sex as men were, and men no longer had to make a distinction between good and bad girls and didn’t expect to marry a virgin. Yet, despite the effect that female contraception had on the women’s liberation movement and that we live in a post Third-wave feminism era, the dichotomy still rears its ugly head today through pop culture, slut-shaming and condemning women in society who enjoy sex as being a whore. Equally as patronizing to feminists, is the ‘Madonna’ label whereby men put a woman on a pedestal as someone to be protected and subservient to men.
As it applies in the context of relationships in modern times, Madonna-whore complex generally manifests itself after marriage or the birth of a child as Dr. Suraci explains:

“A man may think of his wife as a mother and not an appropriate sex partner. He is accustomed to having intercourse with a sexy woman and his wife does not fit the bill. She is now the mother - Madonna. Unconsciously, she may remind him of his mother who cannot be a sexual being,” he said.

However, according to clinical psychologist and sex therapist, Dr. Peter S. Kanaris, Ph.D., while Freud’s conceptualization has some merit, cultural and religious considerations also play a major part:

“In our western American culture we get a divided message that the wholesomeness of love and the ‘good girl’ woman we want to be with in a long-term relationship and perhaps marry, is anything but sexual. She is the person who is responsible and represents stability and foundation. The other aspect of our culture is salacious emphasizing the ‘bad girl’, the one that you don’t marry and is separated in our culture from the one we think seriously about in terms of a long time relationship,” he explained to Alternet.
Furthermore, religion is another factor in reinforcing that sex and love don’t really fit together in that many displays of sexuality in religious relationships are filled with disapproving messages that “Madonna type phenomena” should not be associated with anything sexual.

Moreover, the fact that many males get their first sexual images from internet porn only further unwittingly forces the Madonna/whore divide which in turn becomes a challenge in the development of male sexuality.

alternet.org/sex-amp-relatio … page=0%2C0

The added difficulty with diagnosing Madonna-whore complex is that it often overlaps with other male psychological conditions where erectile dysfunction is present or an underlying libido or psychological problem. In this regard, it is important to distinguish between this Madonna-whore complex and other scenarios affecting male sexual performance such as the situation where a man in a long-term relationship may lose his sexual desire over time. As Dr. Kanaris explains:

“Madonna-whore complex should be distinguished from situations of long-term relationships where desire seems to naturally wane, in that in the former, the problem manifests much sooner – usually around a development event such as a marriage or pregnancy or having a second child. In effect, things that happen that are symbolic of love and happiness and traditional aspects of relationships can elicit or trigger Madonna-whore complex whereas in a long-term relationship situation, you are dealing with a desire problem typically as a result of a relationship that has become stale,” he said.

According to Dr. Joel Block, Ph.D., a psychologist who specializes in couples and sex therapy, some of these men have a difficult time committing:

“They “stray” to keep their vulnerability in check. They are usually unconsciously fearful of getting too attached. Having a woman on the side gives them a better sense of control. With all this effort, many guys do start seeing their women, especially in long term relationships, resembling their mom”, he told Alternet.

Such behavior can lead to infidelity on both parties’ behalf as the man seeks sex with acceptable “whores” and the woman seeks physical comfort. However, Dr. Kanaris says that the disorder is exacerbated in a variety of ways, not necessarily just through affairs, but essentially manifests through the male diverting sexual energy away from the primary relationship - such as toward pornography or erotic massage.

This can create a major strain on relationships because a woman’s partner may be satisfying her in every other facet of the relationship, except sexually. Moreover, the male is presented with a major dilemma when he feels he is unable to love any woman who can satisfy him sexually and is unable to sexually satisfy any woman whom he can love.

Moreover, the matter is further complicated by the fact that despite the lack of sexual desire, the love he has for his partner or wife may endure, creating additional conflict within the man. This in turn affects the woman who is left feeling inadequate, resentful, abandoned and confused.

As Dr. Carol Elison, PhD., clinical psychologist and author of ‘ Women’s Sexualities’, explained to Alternet: “The woman feels like she cannot turn her man on anymore. She feels impotent in how to turn him on and inadequate in her sexuality. Infidelity often ensues on her part as she looks for physical comfort because her man is no longer giving her sex. This happens when some outward attraction meets some unfulfilled need in the relationship. The sexy woman still lives within her, and she meets up with a man who grabs onto that,” she said.

So what is the best way to address the problem? According to the experts, it is important to realize that Madonna-whore complex is an extremely common condition, which affects individuals and relationships.

Furthermore, as Dr. Kanaris explains, most of the time the man is perplexed and has no idea why he feels the way he does, so it is important to help him identify what he is going through by working on closing the gap between love and sex which often involves bringing his female partner into the picture. …
alternet.org/sex-amp-relatio … page=0%2C2

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4XTeh6tjIs[/youtube]

I want to marry a good girl. I want to #%@! a bad girl.

Why is this a surprise to you? The interesting question is, aren’t women the same? Don’t women desire a monogamous man for a husband, and an alpha male asshole for a pimp?

Women want to marry a good boy. Women want to #%@! a bad boy.

You see? No PHD required, it’s simple, common sense. Why do you feel the need to write so many words about such a simple topic?

The real reasons people do things have nothing at all to do with the way people used to do things, but merely with what people expect from others at the moment.

Actual loving is about caring for the other person.
Want to be loved is about caring for yourself.

That is the dichotomy Freud was referring to concerning both men and women (or even animals).

That sex is bad is in the meme-air, even today.
So I don’t want to love and cuddle and have kids with a bad person.
But I want to have sex where I do not feel guilty.

So sex is going to seem best where the other person takes responsibility for the bad. They are bad. They want it, they go for it.
And love is going to seem best where the other person is not so sexed, not wanting it.

Until we finally decide that sex is not bad, we are going to split our mates into good and bad, and the latter ones are going to be sexier because they are bad and you can, therefore, have the sex you want with them.

What is really sick is that this means, I would say more for men, that they can have sex with someone who is obviously not really different than them, as far as sex, and then seconds later call them a whore and mean she should be in hell. Women do this also, but somehow not as harshly.

She didn’t write it, unless she’s Jodie Gummow, who happens to be a senior fellow and staff writer at AlterNet.

Anyway, yeah. Why is the world so black and white in your eyes?

This is just one of the theories out there to look into. There are promiscuous men and women who don’t fit into this category, also. The topic of promiscuity is more multifaceted than this. If you feel like this topic is redundant or unworthy of your consideration, you’re free to ignore and move on.

Common sense, huh? Tell me, insightful, if I want to explore common-sense ideas does this mean there is something wrong with me?

Good thread. IMHO, the virgin/whore problem started in the West with the Christian notion that Mary was a virgin. Of course the idea of virgin birth predated Christianity; but we live with the effects of Christianity. Matthew"s geneology of Jesus does not make sense if Joseph was not the father.

In one thread you’re being judged for asking questions, and in another for not asking enough questions.

Who the fuck is insightfoul? I think we have a troll in our midst.

It would only be reasonable to diagnose a Madonna-whore complex under the conditions that: 1) the man is in what is supposed to be an exclusive/committed relationship, and 2) he is not having sex with his girlfriend/wife as he cheats on her with other women. And 3) the women he does have sex with qualify as “whorish” in his eyes.

That being said, I don’t know why such extra-marital affairs can’t just be chalked up to relationship problems. There’s something wrong in the relationship. Or perhaps with the guy himself. The description given to the woman in the OP (that she seeks physical comfort from another man because she ain’t getting it from her boyfriend/husband) could just as easily apply to the boyfriend/husband if he felt he was being mistreated/unloved by his girlfriend/wife.

At the end of the day, I’ve always been wary of these Freudian type interpretations, or the I-know-better-than-you-what’s-going-on-in-your-unconscious explanations. You might as well believe in penis envy, or the Oedipus complex, or the whole Freudian package. What are these theories based on anyway? What experiments/evidence supports them?

He could be dutifully sleeping with his girlfriend who he has up on a pedestal, but he only really gets turned on by the woman he sleeps with (or even simply wants to) who he Thinks is bitchy or distant or full of herself.

Not every affair is a Madonna-whore thing. The affair could be his new Madonna. it could be casual sex cause he simply doesn’t care. It could be an on the road thing.

Most guys I know can connect with the split, even if it is not so strong that they actually have two women, each playing the specific role. And women seem to have a parallel split where they want to be in relationships with nice guys but get really turned on by bad boys.

Given the judgments we have of sex - in a sense that it is not loving or is bad or sinful - it is no surprise these patterns are there.

How would he get it up? :laughing:

But seriously, this is, of course, a possibility, but I phrased my post carefully: I said that it would be reasonable to diagnose a Madonna-whore complex under the aforementioned conditions. The psychoanalytic theory in question requires supporting evidence if we are to reasonably take it as reality. The conditions I mentioned would be examples of such supporting evidence, whereas if the man was sleeping with his wife/girlfriend based on deontological motives, you couldn’t bring that up as supporting evidence unless you were to somehow get inside his head and demonstrate that these were indeed his motives.

Exactly my point. :smiley: Relationship problems stand out in my mind as the most plausible reason why a man might prefer the “whore” type of woman rather than the “Madonna” type whom he is committed to, but there are all these other reasons (the ones you mentioned) as well. Not everything is a Freudian complex.

I don’t deny this. Again, I choose my words carefully: I’m wary of Freudian type explanations, but that doesn’t mean I flat out deny them.

He sleeps with her once or twice a week. And if we go to marriages, those with or without specific mistresses or concubines, the husbands may sleep with their wives, who they adore - or care Little for but Think are pure - much less than that.

I guess, Gib, I have encounted this pattern so much, I thought most people did. Not just the pure one, but the related ones, such as ones I described earlier.

Right, but I don’t Think many people Think that all affairs are Madonna/whore patterns, I doubt Freud did. That was my Point. Yes, if someone says any affair is a Madonna/whore pattern they are exaggerating a lot.

OK. And I get that for someone who reduces all cheating as based on this, but do are you really wary of the idea that societal judgments of sex would lead to men (and women) having some kind of splits between good, loving members of the opposite sex AND sexy bad, naughty, dark members of the opposite sex? And have you really not encountered quite a bit of this split in people you know? We are a Century ahead of Freud and more accepting of sex than they were then. So the patterns are likely to be looser. A woman who sleeps around now does not face the same amount or harshness of judgments. Perhaps almost none in some subcultures. And marriages are not at all so hard and fast and lifelong. Nevertheless the patterns, it seems to me are there and pretty common. And it is even fairly common to try to spice things up by integrating some of the characteristics of the bad boy/whore within the marriage or relationship. Something that would have been, in Freud’s day, pretty much and impossible conversation between most husbands and wives - and the latter would have been incredibly brave to initiate such a conversation. Wait, you really me to do that? Whereas now that conversation might simply make the guy glad. So there is flow and complexity, sure, more so than in his time, when I would bet the pattern was more pure. But I find it all over the Place, in both men and women. Today we have a chance to blend, finally, on both sides of the gender fence.

(oh, I don’t by Freud’s castration complex or penis envy (though envy of men by women, especially in his day, that I can Believe in. But anyway, I don’t Think we need mothers to do anything special to set up men for the madonna whore split. Society does that, and the household being desexualized (between mom and dad) and the ways women are presented and judged and men also leads to the split. The way the mother acts and the father also can definitely make the pattern more likely, but there need not be any problems there. I mean, just watching TV and looking at fashion ads probably would create the split to some degree)

What do you mean you’ve encountered it? How do you diagnose it?

I think what’s obvious is that Western society has inherited from Christianity a guilt complex over sex (more so, I think, in the US than here in Canada). Does that lead to a split in men’s minds between the “Madonna” kind of woman and the “whore” kind? It could, I guess, but this would be to say that a guilt complex over sex has the effect of splitting women into two groups. I don’t know why guilt would lead to such a sharp polarization, or a black & white categorization scheme. Well, I do know why (as per the explanation of the Madonna-whore complex in the OP), but I’d say that part is not so obvious.

Not overwelmingly. I mean, I’ve seen things like this in the media–like Betty and Veronica–but I think it would be a stretch to jump to the conclusion that someone (like the creator of Archy) actually has a Madonna/whore complex.

Is that what you mean by “pure”? Yes, I would agree that something like the Madonna/whore complex was more prevalent and evident about a century ago, and maybe it’s still present today to a lesser degree. But still, my point is that I’d be wary of diagnosing it or accepting a diagnosis of it by someone else–especially if our feelings and beliefs about sex are a lot more blended now as you say.

What ways are you thinking, Moreno?

Do you have any examples of this?

My questioning methods and not up to THE standard.

Sometimes I get the feeling psychologists are like priests sitting in their holy temples, hoarding sacred knowledge. If one spent years being involved in marriage/relationship counseling talking and listening to people (and sharing data with other professionals) then one may be able to gather enough data to form a pattern, a theory; that is also assuming people surrender all the truth when talking to strangers/professionals, which in turn may depend on their questioning/approach methods. Studies may be biased too. If one of the first things that counselor asks, for example: “what is your relationship with your mother like?”, than one may assume which theory the evidence may be going to support. The assumption may already have been made and all that needs to be done is to fill in the blanks. (not saying that the theory itself is not valid)

This is especially true for the psychoanalytic approach. If the therapist says to the patient “Your issues stem from your relationship with your mother,” and the patient denies it, the therapist can press on with his diagnosis anyway by insisting that the patient is in denial. I’ve been in situations like this before–not with therapists per se, but with people who insist they know exactly what’s going on in my unconscious even in the face of my denial of what they say. After a while, I can end up questioning myself; I can end up wondering if what the guy is saying about me really is true and I’m just blocking it out of consciousness. This in turn can lead to feeling or noticing things in my mind that are similar to or indicative of what the guy is suggesting, but at that point, I have no idea if he has forced some unconscious content to arise into consciousness or he has created such content by the power of suggestion. A stubbornly persistent psychoanalyst could get the same kinds of results out of their patients if they’re not careful.

Let’s call it noticing. I don’t Think it is a disease. I see guys getting turned by the sight of women who look kinda, angry, bitchy, but going out with, marrying women who are softer, warmer and do not generally give off that, I might fuck you if you are good enough vibe. I have seen relationships where the couple lost their spark sexually, but it came back when the woman owned that darker angier sexual side. Give it to me for me. But the men have to be willing to see this as part of a loving relationship with a lot of men, and traditional men in particular, may have trouble with. I see it in the way men use porn, even while they are in monogamous relationships and the types of scenes and women they want to see who tend not to be like the women they are with - in attitude. I see men a lot wanting to have sex with women they do not respect. I want to fuck her. She is a horney slut. That should be weird, but it’s fairly common. I want to get really intimate with someone who I Think is trash (morally). But then going after nicer Girls for relationships or being married to one. And then just talking to men. I mean, I generally find they own up to this pattern to some degree or other. It’s not that they literally are married to a women they don’t have sex with and see prostitutes - the Classic pattern - or have a wild woman on the side. But that they find themselves drawn sexually to women who they do not respect and would not want to be with, with an intensity they wish they had at home.

It would split women into two Groups because they are two strategies for getting men’s attention. But also it will split women into two perceived categories. A lot of times the women are not what they seem to be giving off.

Yeah, I don’t assume one makes art that so easily leads to conclusions About the artist.

This issue, one person diagnosing Another - using this Medical verb - has to do with Power issues and uncertainties when looking at other people. My sense that it is common is based on men owning up to it. Again, not in the pure form, but that they sense some kind of split in themselves between the good girl vibe they want to live with, have kids with and the bad girl vibe they wanna go nuts and have sex with. They may find some of the latter or a lot of the latter with their mates, but they recognize the split, and this leads them to finding women sexually attractive often in a compulsive way, who they do not like or disprespect or would nto be with, and there is this sense that THERE I would find the best sex. So I don’t walk around pointing at men and saying Oh, look that guy has the madonna/whore thing bad. It’s just something I have found talking to men. Stuff they are fairly open about, not that they use that label.

Women also, though it’s not exactly the same split. I do see women drawn to bad boys for sex, but they tend to Think the bad boys are actually sweet Deep down. There is less harshness, overall, in their judgment of these men. The men are not the equivalents to whores and sluts, Words that really have that edge of damnation.

If the father has the split and the kid senses it or catches him acting it out. If the mother sexually abuses the kid. If the mother is distant. If the mother dislikes men - this can lead to the boy thinking he should NOT be like daddy, and may lead him to Think sex is not nice to Mommy.
I am sure there are other ways. But I don’t Think the pattern, as I said, depends on this. I mean if you are weird around your kid, whatever splits and misperceptons and confusions about how to relate can be affected.

Why do models look angry and walk so harshly on walkways? TV reflects societal values and women who are promiscious, have sex for pleasure rather than as part of love, tend not to be the heroines. Men who do this may be the heroes. Who is the female James Bond? IN the last ten years, we have gotten some of this. But overall the messages are still making it seem like women who want sex and that’s why they have sex, maybe as the only reason, tend not to be the heroines. Often something worse. But if the men, who can just fuck for fun are really going to have a good time, the implicit message is, it is going to be with the woman who just wants to fuck.

…and that would be a
No
Shit.

More recently social counselors (especially from government programs) do the same. Actual psychologists are tempted to presume such behavior, but not as often. But every day they get worse as do medical doctors.

That’s quite the array of encounters. Moreno, I have to ask: are you a councilor of some kind? It sounds as if this is where you get your experience from, and I seem to recall you saying somewhere on ILP that you have some kind of practice like this (I may be misremembering).

Could we also say that this attitude towards sex (that it is bad) creates a schism between our desires and our moral values–we still desire sex no matter how bad we think it is–so on the one hand, we are drawn to certain things due to a base immutable desire, but on the other hand, we are drawn to completely different things due to our values and moral attitudes that have been engrained into us. This may be the same as what you’re saying: for there to be two different kinds of stimuli for drawing us towards that which we want (in different ways), there would be two different strategies.

Well, if you’ve encountered men owning up to it, I guess that’s as good as rigorous science. I don’t think I can remember a single such encounter in my experience, but maybe that’s because I don’t get into the kinds of discussions with other men that you do. It might also have to do with the fact that I don’t practice any kind of counciling like (I suspect?) you do? I still think there might a difference in culture as well, as I suggested earlier–we Canadians tend not to polarize issues, or get all up in arms about them, as I get the impression Americans do. Then there’s my own personal upbringing. I was not raised religiously and my parents never even hinted that sex was a bad thing–not even in the way they talked to each other or to others, or in any of the ways they behaved. So this kind of thing–this Madonna/whore complex–is a rather foreign concept to me and I find it hard to empathize with.

No, but I’ve often heard these girls describing them as “jerks” or “assholes” (and I think it’s the same phenomenon as we’ve seen with the Nice Guy syndrome), although, yes, they do also notice a “sweet” side to these men. Interesting how we have a symmetrical explanation here for a phenomenon that seems to happen on both sides of the sexual divide–and a nurture kind of explanation at that (as in nature vs. nurture). The way I’ve seen this phenomenon played out in women–wanting to have sex with the bad boy but wanting to cuddle with the good boy–has always, in my mind, had a biological/evolutionary explanation: that the bad boy is attractive because of his displays of a genotype that underlies being tough, strong, dominant, not wimpy or an easy push over, while the good guy is attractive because of his display of being sensitive and a good father figure to the girl’s children (and possibly also being easy to control, thereby providing the girl with a potential “slave” she can boss around). But then again, they do say the differences between men and women, even at the biological/genetic level, aren’t totally black and white, that there is always going to be a small percentage of the opposite sex in any one sex. Maybe the Madonna/whore complex is just a milder, less prevalent, version of the biologically/genetically based bad-boy/good-guy conflict within women.

Gib,

Good men are much harder for women to control than bad men. You will never get a good man to accept lots of money being the CEO of a company no matter how much the women wants that money, you won’t get them to kill people for absurd reasons, you won’t get them to rape women… amongst other things. Good men don’t flirt and they don’t respond to flirting, one difference between women and men is that men only flirt with who they want to have sex with, women quite commonly flirt with people they never have an intention of having sex with. Women call other women sluts (not men) who give their sex more readily, because it devalues their commodity. Nice guys aren’t sucked into any of this, nice guys don’t flirt with women at all because of how women complain about flirting relative to men, the men who are least controlled by women are the nice males. Once a man starts to step into the web of the female sexual consent structure, which is not what nice men are doing (the only people on the planet interested in peaceful co-habitation of humans etc…), they are very easily manipulated for the sexual choice they get, it’s the female sexual blackmail that the entire gender throughout the species is using. The only thing nice guys do from all of this, is suicide, because they realize that women are in complete control of all of the suffering and war and are biologically inclined to keep brutality going for as long as this species survives, so wanting peace, they simply leave, understanding the check-mate.

I think this Madonna/Whore complex is absurd. It is a very rare man who will give a bad girl the most sexual choice… brutal female felons don’t get letters from men. Brutal male felons get letters from women. If you’re looking for male sexual choice, the last thing you want to be as a female, is a complete asshole.