Bobs signature answers this question.
who is bob?
Tent,
I’m not quite sure what you mean by the ‘desire part’ unless you’re saying that ‘desire’ doesn’t play a part in achieving something. If you do mean this, it begs the question: Don’t you first have to be aware of desiring something before you go after it? Also, I think there is at least a subtle difference between desire and need. With desire, you are aware that you would like to have something though you may be aware that you can live without it – with need, you may feel you cannot live without it. The sensation is deeper. Or am I wrong…simply a case of semantics here?
Well, yes, true – I agree with you on that. That is contentment and it is awareness/wisdom too. There was just something about that ‘best of your ability’ that sort of seemed like a copout to me. For me, I think we can push beyond what we consider to be ‘the best of our ability’. Sometimes we stop at what we ‘think’ that is. Could be laziness/inertia. It is almost like saying ‘well, I’ll try’.
I suppose I would suggest ‘presence’. I think that people being ‘present’ to one another, being helpful and supportive, serves us far better than praying to a silent god who is not present and perhaps not real. Real ‘flesh and blood’ people can help us become more aware of who we are and what our needs are – they can act as mirrors to us and visa versa. But I do understand prayer. There was a time that I prayed. I don’t anymore because I see no one to pray to. I think prayer serves the same purpose as making a wish and blowing out the birthday candles. It comforts us psychologically but is it ‘real’? A tree or nature can comfort me psychologically, in a sense, with its ‘presence’ because of my interconnectedness with it, and i see evidence of its reality, though nature still remains neutral.
We never discussed rubbing - you demagogue. I’m going to report you to your wife!! 
‘You’re game’? No, you want to be the ‘game’ or you want me to be the game. O/K
Yes, I get this. And I am deeply aware of how many people feel lonely and alone in this world and this is why I think that flesh and blood human beings can satisfy that need deeper than any illusory presence can. Unfortunately, we do not feel the interconnectedness with each other that would be wonderful to topple a god from its heavens.
Hello Dead Me,
Bob is another dude on this forum.
Bob is a wonderful man with a lot of what I would call wisdom and compassion.
When I read his posts I see a kind man with a vast amount of experience.
There is meaning in his words that comes from his heart and comes without contradiction.
When I say something on this forum I often contradict what I say when I am put to the test of life.
The thing is that I rarely get tested in life as I have manipulated my external conditions such that it gives the illusion that I am wise and compassionate.
I have surrounded myself with friends that “understand me”, have a loving and caring partner who “accepts me” for the way I am, I have surrounded myself by “nice people on an internet forum” and I have surrounded myself with “comfortable conditions”.
When I get challenged? I quickly put things back to their natural order with a disciplinary tone and then I go back to my illusion.
How long can I maintain my lie? I susepct I will maintain it till my dying day.
I am a proud and arrogant know it all that controls and most of the time is not even aware of this.
So, “Who is Bob?”
Bob is what I see lacking in myself.
Dead Me - that is who Bob is!
Ironically his signature is
“The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.” - TS Eliot
Of which I lack both - Wisdom and Humility.
My child,
Please, you’ll forgive me for not coming to your funeral. It seems I’d a sudden engagement with death I had to attend to. but look I’m here now . I’m back.
I just couldn’t die without you.
Humpty dumpty sat on a wall. He had a great fall. all the king’s men and all the kings horse couldn’t put him back together again.
who pushed humpty dumpty off the wall ? Someone must have pushed him over . who was it? Note there were kings men and king’s horse involved .
so Bob is another dude. How many people are we talking about ? They just keep on coming , don’t they ?
compassion means you wish others to be like you , to be in the same fix as you and you lend a hand just to have that happen . but a hunter he has no compassion for anyone esp for himself . A hunter believes to let others be what they are and he realizes it’s the hardest thing ever to believe . one of the greatest acts of a hunter is to let others be and support them in what they are which means he trusts that they are hunters too . and if they are not then his only option is to continue alone to let himself be and not say anything …he must stay compassionless . every help we give is guided by our own self interested and is always arbitrary . a hunter is incapable of feeling compassion because he doesn’t feel sorry for himself . without self pity compassion is meaningless .
kindness is the farthest thing from the hunter . a hunter is ruthless , cunning, patient, and sweet. He is ruthlessness but not harsh. Cunning but not cruel, sweet but not foolish. Egomania is a real tyrant. One must work hard to get rid of it .
he has no ulterior purpose in his acts , there is no personal gain in them. The fact that he enjoys his acts does not count as gain. it is a condition of his character. The average man acts only if there is the chance for profit. The hunter acts not for profit but for the spirit. no thought of personal gain. So he can’t be angry or disillusioned
you want to be always be able to tell the illusions apart and you fear the day when you can’t tell the illusion apart from the illusion … .you must work on your fear .its stand in the way between you and learning. this is beginning of the road for you.
Someone must quickly go and tell TS Eliot humility has turned him into popular culture .
So who is Bob? Who pushed him off the wall? Who is talking to me ? are you talking to me ? I don’t see anyone talking to me. I’m looking over my shoulder I don’t see anyone .
meditative you made me laugh. that was great . laughter is good in a world where happiness is always in short supply.you work hard . I’m alive .Its alive . oh no.
What if you do not have the wisdom to understand the bible ? what if the bible can only give you what you can get from it ?
Which is better do you think ? The truth about the body of thought or the truth about the subject thought about ?
I was fortunate or other wise to meet and know great men and of their affairs relatively speaking to my humble social circles . they didn’t kill no Goliath when their young boys but they did some great deeds enough to establish them as legends among their clans. One of them was great warrior . once he encountered a whole army of the enemy . he pulled a big tree with hands form the ground and clobbered the enemy with it . Another fought a lion . he grabbed it by its tail and swung it around and smashed it against the ground. I myself once killed a rat . My daughter saw the dead rate and went and told her mother …father killed a rat . her mother gave her one resounding slap and yelled her …your father killed a lion . but can you imagine what kind of damage that would have done to my reputation if news spread that I’ve been killing rats .
I’m growing old and I thought just in case I better turn over control to my sons . I did it when I was able to do it before old age set in and scrambled my brain like the way it did to those great men I had the fortune to know . And I’m something like that . I came up form the bottom of the heap and climbed to the top . it was a very rough journey full trials and tribulation , full of numerous nites , sleepless nites , full of worries and suspicions . I tell you it was a great hardship and the greatest hardship is how you have to destroy others who get in your way only to have to destroy more to keep what you gained . A life like that turns the man into a cruel ruthless person who is ready to destroy at the slightest provocation or threat . no one is exempt not even your own direct family members . Infact your own direct family members become to seem to you as the first and greatest threat . you have no sympathy for them. you love them but you also despise them because you think they are undeserving . they got all easy . these are not me . they can’t possibly safe guard that which you have gained with your great toil and that we which after having gained you have labored for so long to keep against so many enemies and against the odds. And everything you see that they do proves the point . they are nothing but weak sissies . then you think weak sissies are going to bury me when I die ? is this my end . is this the reward for a life of toil and hardship. So they can go squander it all or get suckered out of it all ? anger sets in. great anger and resentment .
Its my conviction that David was murdered and the reason for that was his own doing . I’ve come across such as him and I know what they do and what they become. A man like David when he gets old he looks down on his sons and on everyone. He sees no equal to himself. He has come from nowhere and has reached the top. Just a boy he killed goliath .he fought he suffered , he spent many nites in sheer agony and terror and great trouble and he has labored such for decades . a man who is like that finds it hard to let go , to turn over power . leave it to a bunch of sons who never knew what it is like to starve and to suffer and stare death in the eye in the heat of the battles ? why they will be run over by all those no good conniving double dealing lackeys who fawn up to me day and nite and call me lord just so I don’t order their heads taken off . A man like that keeps working his mind like that until he acquires a frame of mind that says here is where the buck stops. None of the my sissies are going to get anything . . He is not going to leave them all that which he had labored for and guarded all his long life so they can take it and blow it on women and parties till it has all been squandered . so he hangs on to his throne and he hangs on and he gets older and older and his mental faculties start to fail and his anger grows bigger and bigger as the last enemy he faces which is old age he can not defeat forcing him against his wishes to relinquish that power . in his despair he lashes out at everyone .you have no idea how bad it can get. I’ve witnessed such men deny their sons charging that they are bastards not their own sons . accusing their wives, their life time partners of adultery and prostitution. This is roughly a picture of how it was like in his last days .
Among my people the cattle herders , it is very common to attribute actions or feats done by someone to someone else . this is not an attempt to give credit where credit doesn’t belong . its done openly with the full knowledge that everyone knows its not true . seniority has its prerogatives. it still happens even in the west . Happens in the west all the time. the ceo who takes credit for the labor of his juniors. The college professor and his post graduate TAs who were the actual ones who did the work. That’s how the system works and have to work.
I know and I’m sure many beside me know that the story of the two harlots in story of Solomon was borrowed form older tradition. As far as the people back then you can be sure everyone has heard it a million times and so did the ones before way before Solomon happened . people didn’t have the internet and its information highways but they more than made up for it . when a traveler comes to the village his foremost duty is to tell us of what he saw and heard. After the customary greetings and food and some rest and relaxation the people all the people gather in a circle and coffee/wine / refreshments is served and the traveler begins to tell all that he has seen and heard. First he starts with the personal stuff . you so and so over there , your sister living in such and such village gave birth to a boy . the boy looks the split image of Samson. and you over there so and so your son sold the bull for more money than anyone could get . he has bought lots of sugar and fabric and salt and whatnot and he is on his way back from the city with great gifts for all and should get here soon . every time he finishes with telling an accounts all the people node their heads and make a sound to the effect yes please go on. After he is done with everyone he starts talking about all the wonders he has seen . things like the two harlots with the two babies with one sleeping on the baby and killing it and how the great judge said to cut the baby in half and and and . the people love that stuff . they shake their heads in wonder and awe and make all kind of remarks and ask wach other questions. The questions invariably why this story in particular ? and what omen does it tell . and who or what is the story teller intending it for . some of the stuff is just for fun . this guy once who went all the way to India gravitated the people with stories of seeing the grave of the virgin Mary in India . he was serious nutball but he was really great . what can I say ? its our master piece theater .
So obviously the question is what did the writer meant to say when he put that harlot story in the story of Solomon ? the people heard the story before . the story was appropriated and accredited to Solomon because supposedly its good story to show that he is wise .if he is the wisest then he deserves that story even more than the real guy. but the problem its not really a good story to show that Solomon was wise . Just because one harlot didn’t want to see the baby cut in half doesn’t prove she is the real mother . there also questions about harlots with babies . what if the baby is neither woman baby…you get a judge to try a case like this in a similar environment and watch what happens .no witnesses ? fine then its the oath. Conjure the dreaded oath of the covenant. You really can’ t tell.
so why this story in particular and not some other story ?
the two harlots are the two rival camps represented by Solomon camp and adonijah camp vying for the throne of David. At some point a plan was hatched to get rid of the king . the king was very old , his mental faculties failed .he is unstable , argumentative, angry all the time , and given to delirium . god knows what he might do . he could ruin everything . so we say the king is cold . he needs a young lovely woman to keep him warm .The hit man was to be a woman ,Abishag. Everyone participated in finding her so everyone will be safe from having a finger pointed at them in some later conspiracy theory of how the king died . something didn’t go according to plan. The king was supposed to be dead .the king got smothered in bed. But adonijah goes and hold a big party proclaim himself king and doesn’t invite the rest of the co conspirators …adonijah is celebrating thinking he won the day. Big mistake . Nathan is no schmuck . . there is another king and he is alive . Solomon says the king says Solomon is to be king . adonijah caught by surprise . adonijah camp protests Solomon says war and mayhem. Cut the baby in half if need be . The kingdom will be split. While they argue Solomon quickly consolidates .he wins over the necessary troops. adonijah back off . a new deal is negotiated. Some will get liquidated and some will be left alone. Solomon is just buying time to consolidate further . They accept. They had no choice . Solomon established he goes to work. hatches another plan. Has his mother come to him and ask him to give Abishag to his brother . Abishag is the hit man and the witness to the crime. Solomon feigns great anger and charges that his brother wants the woman to take the kingdom. he kills his brother . then one by one he gets rid of all the hostile witnesses citing all kind of reasons.
is this how it typically happens in kingdoms? Double dealing conniving and everything goes to get that throne. Brother kills brother , uncles kill nephews and and and .And the king is great and full of wisdom. dare you disagree . ? still the truth is elusive .Hamlet father is killed by his brother . But hamlet uncle if you think about it wasn’t the bad guy . he was a shrewd diplomat and a politician and he certainly knew how to treat women and he valued peace . whereas Hamlet father even coming back from the grave is dressed in armor . I tell, you if you read the history war mongers are usually disposed off either by family or the people. And women they don’t want to hear about no war . she chose the uncle , hamlet mother did . hard to fault her . but hamlet doesn’t think that way . even when he had the chance and perfect opportunity to kill his uncle and gain the whole kingdom he didn’t kill him because he was worried the uncle might go to heaven . do you really want someone like hamlet ruling ? I myself would chose the uncle.
One thing that distinguishes the bible it’s a very truthful book. Its knowledge not wisdom. I know how to tell because I lived some of that life if somewhat in a much smaller scale and I’m pretty much sure many did because even a single house hold can be the same . on a much larger scale… the son knows the father because he was in the bosom of the father . some know it because of evolution theory . they are young men who see an alpha male , a king and wealth and 700 hundred women and long life and power and worldly might … They see wisdom. That’s why my wife slapped my daughter . the ones I ruled were wanna be alpha males . so I killed a lion not a rat. don’t mess with me young males. I’m bad .I kill lions just like that . I’m Hercules .
One of the hot debated issues among the federalists, the American federalists was what kind of citizen where they dealing with and what rules would best fit them .see the concern was not the rule , the concern was the ruled , the citizen . Fortunately for mankind the federalists figured that any rules however wise will be and I borrow form William James … too through and through and too buttoned up to address the masses with all their countless competing interests and known and unknown ties. ( better check this out. but I think roughly that’s how he put it )
All is forgiven, but next time I die I will ensure that you are buried by my side (along with a deaths supply of chocolate).
I am not much into conspiracy theories - evil doing is not always the most obvious cause.
Humpty Dumpty is an egg and this was his downfall from the very beginning.
With no flat surfaces to rely upon, Humpty Dumpty succumbs to his own nature - rolling off the wall in a melodramatic manner.
“Oh, woe ist me” - self pity does not suit him.
Does not make for an epic tale but it was very tragic indeed.
It was comical in many ways - like a man getting struck in the family jewels with a football.
Makes you laugh and cry at the same time.
All this makes for a fertile ground for great discussions.
Meditation,
Hi
Kids over here do not care much for chocolate . they will take a bite and eat it but that’s because of the sugar . but its not something they look forward to . you know like the thought of it conjures oh yummy in your mind .
Chocolate is an acquired taste . you have to start with the kids when they are very young . otherwise they won’t develop a taste for it or it be harder to program them into liking it
Sodas like Pepsi and coke and such are out of the question this is what happens when they drink it for the first time. They take a sip followed by a gasp . the sensation they get is that of hotness. They blow on it trying to cool it off . it’s the carbon gas . doesn’t work . they hand you back the can and tell you they don’t want it
I mentioned soda because its easier to illustrate the technique. They sell it in bottles here in Africa , 12 ounce bottle. The bottle contains eight table spoons of sugar and less gas but higher amount of caffeine . it gives the person a good jolt . so he comes back for more . so its done with an eye to keep you coming . the amount of the drink and the sugar content and caffeine figure in the manufacturing in that way…
I think there was a research done on women with the claim that women are more disposed towards chocolate. Thing is women here can stand chocolate . they don’t like it .maybe what it is a programmed women differs from the programmed men.
You mentioned once in one post that you surround yourself with agreeable people and stuff like that . nothing I see positive r negative in that . but women here do not care for the company of men. Fact of the matter if a man tries to hang out with the women they will tell him to scram , to leave. Women here despise men who stick around women. It kind of contradicts their image of what a man should be . the man comes over at nite . he calls her . she doesn’t come out I keep walking . but usually in the day time they don’t want to see you . and the man usually doesn’t either . it’s a different world.
Kids here do like sweet things . but they are different sweet things . the only one I can think off that you might know is dates . but there a lot of things like that . i can get the English names for them for you if you like .
The point is David didn’t like chocolate. If you don’t know that what basis do you have for any reading of the Solomon story let alone conspiracy theory .
You say evil and good. I don’t see that . I put that hamlet example precisely in anticipation of that .
Frankly mediation , if you bring chocolate with you to my grave ,I’m throwing the both of you out . then we will have to figure the problem with the time zone. We can’t be together in the day time in the same grave. In the day time you stay in the women grave I stay in the men grave. You make me stay with you all the time you will turn me into you and then we get bored . too much access breeds boredom. My advice practice the art of unavailability. A domesticated man will be a bore for you.
I’m very grateful to you for forgiving me. I don’t know about women. they always say they forgive us . I get into an argument with the woman and she brings up the incident for she forgave me ten years. I have to go I’m changed man ten years ago. it is my opinion only a foolish man will think he can out do a woman in a discussion. I mean if it comes to that . doesn’t have to and shouldn’t. so forget it mediation. I’m not discussing humpty with you. .I agree with anything you say . I insist.you the boss .
Hi Camelherder,
I remember my mother telling me a story of when she first tried chocolate. She was very poor and lived as a peasant and she only ate what grew on the land as there was little money. She heard money people talking of the fine qualities of chocolate and developed very lustful thoughts over it. It was not until she was in her twenties (I think) that someone shared some chocolate with her (as a gift). She tasted it and immediately spat it out in front of them. She blurted - it’s horrible I would rather have fruit. … But Despite this, over the years she developed a tolerance for its taste as people so often gave it to her as a gift. In politeness, as she did not want to offend, she developed a tolerance. But she would always say secretly behind closed doors… “It’s horrible I would rather have fruit”. But she still appreciated the nature of the gift which was kindness.
If someone gives me some chocolate I sometime think… Why are you giving me this?
Are you giving me this because you like it and want to share what you like?
Are you giving me this because you hate it and are giving it away because you don’t like it?
Are you giving it away because you just want me to get fat and have my teeth fall out… is it because you hate me?
And then I think… “I like chocolate. Thank you for the gift. I do not care what your intention was. You have given me something I like. Thank You.”
I remember when I was young and we were poor. We could not afford to by cola let alone coca cola (coke). We only drank water, home grown herbal teas, and milk. I had lustful thoughts of drinking coke but could not afford it. As we where poor we could not afford many medical expenses either and we could not afford medicine. When I had an upset stomach my mother would go to the shop and by some coke. She would come back and only give me a small amount of coke in a medicine cup and say drink this. It is medicine and it will make you feel better. I would drink it in disgust, as every child would when they drink their medicine. I would let out a huge burp and immediately felt better. I gave my mother a big hug and then fell asleep. My mother only gave us a little bit of coke as a medicine as she knew that too much would keep us awake.
But I never argued with her as she was a woman. She knew what was best. And now, I do not like cola much - except when I am sick.
Your mother is good person compared to my mother —when she lived . My mother when she was offered chocolate as a gift for the first time she took a sip and it almost choked her to death . she accused the person who gave her the chocolate of trying to kill her and demanded that she be put to death for it . that person was my first wife god rest her soul . if my mother was like your mother and just spat the soda sip and said that she would rather have fruit that wife of mine would still be living today.
Please meditative lets not talk about chocolate anymore. It brings back sad memories .tears are rolling down here and I’m having to wipe my nose on my beat up robe .its my only robe. beside we don’t want to hijack this post do we?
Coca cola company is one of the 500 fortune companies of the usa .I’m not sure but its also one of those companies in the Dow Jones index. Soda might be not so good for you but the company plays a relatively significant role in terms of living standards .
I watched that senate hearing of Alan Greenspan . when Mr.greenspan talked about the low end tail of the probability curve dipping down without been noticed and offering that by way of an excuse. the senators conducting the hearing just looked and said nothing . they looked like they had their first sip of soda.
In another senate hearing of goldman sachs , the hearing went on for hours . The senators vowed the hearing will go on till they find out what happened .a bunch of senators with back up teams sitting behind them assisting them versus three young Goldman Sachs managers . the goldmna Sachs executive ran circles around them. at one point one of the senators just sat there holding her head between her hands .
Talking about Alyshoka praying for wisdom to rule. I think alyshoka is going to have to go and get a bunch of PhDs in math and economics and banking and finance and then he is going to need a life time of hands on practice plus do a lot of praying asking god to help him run the fed bank right by which time he will be too old and set for retirement .
I think it much more complicated than 2+2=4 . that’s number system . we’re talking global economy with funny things happneing like dollar going up or holding steady while goodl going up. ten year note going down when fed cuts interest.
I wish you didn’t tell me you were peasants. That means you were plant people. Once plant people always plant people.
So you grew the herbal tea then you packaged them and gave them to the super market to sell and then you went and bought some ?
Meditative are you playing with me ?
I think David lived to an old age because he drank plenty wine which kept his arteries unclogged . the question is did god tell him to drink the wine or did he drink it because he liked it . was it wisdom or was it the buzz .
The gift is to the giver not the receiver . people give because it makes them feel good about themselves. that’s why Madonna adopts African orphans when there’re plenty American orphans in America who are dying to be adopted . that’s why western billionaires help African poor people when they have tons of homeless in the west.
Hate is just love turned inside out . so if they give you the chocolate because they hate you its because they love you in reverse . I wouldn’t worry about that . I would worry about whether they laced the chocolate with something to make your eyes revolve uncontrollably inside their sockets and go ooweee baby. . Otherwise I wouldn’t worry about their intentions. I agree with you on that .
I was the poorest when I had the most .after I gave the stuff to my kids I became very wealthy .
Herbal tea is much more pricey than cola . my herbal tea is priceless . medicine is highly subsidized in Africa except for the latest stuff . some of the latest stuff though is available before it gets approval in the west . it depends. Also India and some other such countries are entering the market. Viagra made in India costs less than two usa bucks here .That’s not subsidized price. Viagra for some reason isn’t subsidized. china offers relatively reasonable rates for stuff like liver transplant and whatnot. A number of other third world countries are emerging as centers for advanced medical treatments .but for kids access for medication for such stuff as an upset stomach is available for free in Africa in the cities .You grew up in or near a city to have coke available. Which part of the world ?
For god so loved the world he gave his only son.
I don’t see wisdom when I look at Solomon. I don’t see evil . I don’t see good. I will remember to ask my son to get me a pair of glasses .
So is wisdom doled out in answer to prayer like welfare checks in answer to protest demonstrations?
You must acquire it the old fashioned way, you must earrrn it.
A welfare check is not “prayed for”. It may be wished for or hoped for, it may be desperately wanted or needed, but there is no prayer there.
Taking a different approach, do you not think that prayer is enough to “earn” wisdom? It seems to me that prayer is hard work, like how Jesus prayed so hard before he was arrested that he sweated blood. I’ve worked hard in my life, but I’ve never worked so hard as to sweat blood…
Mind you, I’m not all that expert on what prayer is. One thing that I would hope for from this post is an answer to the question what is prayer?
alyoshka,
Hi alyoshka, it’s been awhile. I hope you’re well. 
I personally don’t feel that prayer is ‘enough’ to earn wisdom. I do have a sense, of course, that if one continues to pray for something, and still does not receive what they want, they might just acquire a little wisdom if they are paying attention - that tells them that prayer is not ‘enough’. Wisdom also requires self-awareness, I think.
In which way do you consider prayer to be hard work, alyoshka? My feeling is that if prayer appears to be like hard work, then we are doing something wrong. Isn’t prayer a communication with God, communing with God? Granted, communicating with human beings, can be hard work, tiring, but communicating with God?
Of course, if one is having an inner debate and arguing with his/her God, that might be considered hard work. I suppose it might also be considered a form of prayer but I’m not sure about that. 
I think it’s just an internal dialogue with one’s self.
There is the Serenity Prayer that goes: “Lord, grant that I may accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” This seems also like a perfect prayer. It’s also like a mantra to me. But, at least to me, it does not end there.
I would, in a sense, insofar as the topic here goes, compare prayer to the fuel that goes into the vehicle in order to make it run. BUT how good is the fuel if one does not turn on the gas and actually use the vehicle? The fuel can be likened to the prayer and the energy that is ‘capable’ of getting Man’s mind/spirit started up running – but the vehicle itself, Man, must do the hard work, sweat and yes even bleed (figuratively speaking) to bring that prayer to fruition. Otherwise to me that prayer is no more than like a man getting into his car, turning it on, and going nowhere, remaining idle.
Many people look on prayer as some kind of wishful thinking event, like making a wish and blowing out the candles. ASKING, ASKING, ASKING, ASKING, ASKING, would also be a form of prayer that many people are about - a prayer of petition. But again, it goes nowhere without the work. The thought just occurred to me. Let’s say that we want to accomplish something in the neighborhood. We draw up a petition but instead of copying it and going all over the neighborhood with the petitions, passing them along and explaining ourselves - in other words - doing the hard work needed to accomplish the desire - we just let them sit on our desk. This is what many people do about their prayers, but it isn’t very effective. Someone might ask “Well, then, why bother praying? Just do the hard work necessary.” Very good question indeed.
But, on the other hand, prayer can be extremely helpful. If one does pray, it can give one the psychological push that one needs, if they have the awareness that for them at least there is a personal God within their life that watches out for them and that may give them the strength necessary to do whatever it is they need to do. Some people pray and just sit around and wait for something to happen, believing that something will happen. Others will pray and that gives them the courage and the will and the determination – that fuel seeps through them engendering them to rise up and causes them to act in such ways that things get done or wisdom does come to them – in other words, they earn it. It is not just given.
Even in a moment, let’s say as when an epiphany is experienced, and it appears as though ‘wisdom’ has instantly come to us, it hasn’t actually been in a moment. That moment was probably full of many moments of prayer, thinking, and the hard work needed to come upon that wisdom.
As for myself, I don’t pray, but I do go sit before nature, the stars or before nothing, . I don’t mumble a lot of words or any words, except for those that may just rise up out of me involuntarily. For me, prayer is nothing more than just ‘being’ before whatever it is that we see as larger than life - being in that moment. I’ve seen squirrels in the park, standing still, perfect still, with no movement and just looking ahead of them for an indefinitely period of time. Perhaps they too are praying.
I can understand moments of thankfulness for just being alive, but I cannot accept prayers petitioning any god for anything. You have all that you need to live out your days. Do what you can within the best of your ability. That is what life and living is about.
Well, I personally do feel the same way you do Tent. But i do understand the psychology behind prayer and the need that people feel to pray - to reach out to something or someone that is larger than themselves. I’ve been there, done that too but now I don’t. And even in those moments, when some kind of residual arises in my brain, I resist the urge. To whom would I be praying anyway?
There is a saying by Meister Eckhardt I think - “If the only prayer you say today is thank you, that is sufficient”. I affirm this by 200 percent. When we look out at the universe and everything within it, how can there truly be any other prayer except one of THANK YOU that comes to us through transcendence? But that is just my own personal opinion, based on intuition/perception/sensation. 
There’s a tension in what you say here. “Thankfulness” connotes dependence, yet you describe a life of independence, and you say that you “cannot accept prayers petitioning any god for anything”. If we are creatures that should be thankful, because we are dependent upon others, then why on earth should we give that up and strive to disconnect these bonds, “doing what we can within the best of our ability”?
If what you say here is “what life and living is about”, viz., being independent, then life goes against nature, which is to be dependent upon others. Is life, then, about breaking away from life? Is life about living on one’s own in isolation?
First Question: do you genuinely think that you have all that you need to live out your days?
If it where legal, I think I could prove you wrong and I think I could make you eat those words.
But it would not be legal for me to do such a thing and it would be against my own morals.
Second Question: At some point in your life, have you requested something from another human being?
If you genuinely look at your life you will find that you ask from others constantly (from the day of your birth).
Your “demands” from others are in fact without end and you have not genuinely given others a single moment of respite.
Just like me - you are selfish and arrogant and your demands are endless.
You and I live our lives by taking from others and by selfishly holding onto what we have got.
This is how we get all that we need to live out our days.
Look around, look at the world, look at others, and look at the suffering of countless humans.
If all you did was to look in the eyes of every human that was suffering at this very moment in time,
- then you would die before you reached the end of the list.
We may have all that we need but it is because we have ripped it from the hands of the helpless.
At this point in time what are people thinking about this post? ^Shug^
Edit: alyoshka snuck in with a reply before me (the selfish brat).
In reference to tent’s thought, and dovetailing med & alyoshka’s concern, I would think the point is that we DO have all we need, not from a point of “independence”, but rather through our dependence on others.
That we have others to depend on is all we need (with the implication that they, too, need us). We do not need a god further to that. If fortune has it that we don’t have others, then, ya, bring in the gods, the fantasy Other, for purely pragmatic/default purposes. But insofar as we do, such ought not be discounted in favor of an abstraction constructed for the respite of our bottomless desires.
In the words of Blind Rev. Gary Davis, Let us get together right down here! Let us do our living right down here! Let us fight together, children, right down here!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ0bJZY-WFo[/youtube]
This would be an indirect connection between prayer and the acquisition of wisdom. As you well know, I’m more interested in a direct connection.
You think communicating with God is easy? Have you, for example, read the Book of Job? Have you understood it? What it presents us is, at least in part, a conversation with God. But I, at least, have yet to be able to plumb its depths. Understanding Job’s conversation with God is hard work, and I welcome any effort to simplify it!
In fact, contrary to what you say yet again, Job’s conversation with his friends, i.e., human beings, is the easy part of this story to understand…
There you go. Now you’re on to something…
I don’t see wisdom in knowing the difference between what can change, and what cannot. For God, all things are possible, so this dichotomy breaks down I think.
I’m not sure if I like this. It seems to me that prayer isn’t the fuel, but rather it is “Man’s mind/spirit started up running”. Prayer is itself the hard work, requiring the blood, sweat, and tears of the one who prays.
While I appreciate what you’re saying here, I can’t agree that “we do not need a god further to that”. It is precisely God who we are to depend on, God and no other. It is God who we ask “to give us our daily bread” and to “deliver us from evil”, not Joe-Blow down the street.
The thing is, or what I think you are missing, is that God represents an orientation, or a fundamental commitment, which we can’t get anywhere else, or through depending upon anyone else. Effectively, my point is that “others” are morally ambiguous. “Others” are both good and evil and everything in between.
God, on the other hand, is primed in a certain way. God is not “the fantasy Other” in all its moral ambiguity but rather God is the one who comes in love and brings wisdom.