Praying for Wisdom

Fair enough. But I’m not so sure there is a direct connection, unless I don’t understand what you mean by direction connection, though I do understand the word ‘direct’. Even you yourself, Alyoshka, don’t simply open the bible, read it, close it and expect a deluge of wisdom to come pouring into you, do you?

But I don’t think of this as prayer, Alyoshka. This is study and reflection and trying to understand how our own lives relate to what we read in the bible, what the stories speak to us. As you just said – “Understanding Job’s conversation with God is hard work”.

Now perhaps the part that may be prayer is when you would cease the reading and the thinking and put yourself into a still quiet moment and ask your god for the wisdom to know what this god says to you through all of these words. In this case, the work comes BEFORE the prayer.

And then again, you may ‘seeing’ all of this, as a total form of prayer, as when people use the phrase in regard to church worshipping – ‘singing is praying twice.’ in a sense.

And what about these conversations stands out uppermost in your mind that make them so easy for you to understand?

Well, I did say that that could be considered prayer though I don’t actually consider it as such. To me, it is simply internal dialogue, critical thinking perhaps. But if I put myself into your place, your position, then perhaps I could consider that prayer, Alyoshka, a dialogue between yourself and God and trying to understand what this God is saying to you through the words of the bible.

Well, I would say that knowing the difference between what we can and cannot change is a good starting point for wisdom, Alyoshka.

Even IF, with a personal god, all things were possible, this STILL doesn’t mean that this god would choose to grant our every wish, our every desire. Your thought is based on that assumption. Yes, there are some things which are possible for us, and some that are not, at least in a real world. To pray to a god and expect this god to give us something, that if looked at in a reasonable and logical and in an honest way, is beyond our capacity to have or god’s to give, is living in a fantasy world. So in knowing the difference, there is wisdom. And there is also wisdom in our capacity to see what is real and what is simply our illusions. Perhaps part of the problem for me here lies in the notion that ‘all things are possible’ - but that even being the case, i would personally intuit a god that would be more discriminating in its actions, no matter how much we prayed or stormed the heavens. That kind of praying could only bring conflict and disharmony albeit that may not necessarily be a bad thing - that in itself could be the beginning of wisdom. :laughing:

And doesn’t hard work require energy, just like the vehicle requires the fuel to get it started and running? Maybe you just don’t like the analogy of the fuel with prayer. I don’t mean it in an undermining way, Alyoshka. But prayer can be like an ‘energy’ that starts up our minds and spirits. Many people I think would say that prayer is ‘energizing’ – would you?

This is, of course, the question: to my recollection, God is just as likely to be the one who brings wrath and withholds wisdom… as Job humbly concedes to in his repenting in dust & ashes from desiring an explanation (and an implied, “Geez, sorry I asked!”). I find there to be more ambiguity in the infinite depths of hermeneutics which accompany textual analyses of scripture than there is in appealing to Joe-Blow down the street.

Perhaps it is more the nature of “Wisdom” which is up for grabs here. Is wisdom a predetermined monolith of correct thought, or is it an ever revolving processing of perspective? If the latter, and if one were to successfully be praying to God for it, one would not be receiving anything beyond oneself, no? Rather, it would seem to be thought more as involving an existential clarity, perhaps better a reckoning of Mood. Such that, though one’s perspective continues to become nothing other than what one already is, one’s take on it is adapted in terms of a contentment with one’s finitude. And perhaps there is no other locating of wisdom than within finitudes, such that God is by default beyond Wise. Sent back into Mystery, then, our prayers become self-reflections of/on our ownmost divinity; and our involvement with others becomes our only means of gaining perspective on our perspective. Perhaps that’s one of the things God simply cannot do for us.

Alternatively, if wisdom is rather a predetermined monolith of correct thought, then, ya, it’s a commodity one might pray for, like anything else…

:laughing: Are you the camelherder or are you a very parched camel? Or did you just fall off of one and crack your head open. (*,)

:laughing: Are you the camelherder or are you a very parched camel? Or did you just fall off of one and crack your head open. (*,)

alyoshka and meditation,

It’s possible that you are reading into my statement a bit more than I was saying. Admittedly, I didn’t toss in the usual caveats and full-blown explanations, so misunderstanding was almost inevitable.

First, As Oughtist pointed out, being thankful for life does not require a god - any god. I was careful to not suggest prayer to any creator even as I gratefully acknowledge creation. The difference may be subtle, but an important subtlety.

Second, I did not suggest some black and white division between individual independence and social dependency. Life presents both states of being as necessary. I was born in a geographical portion of the world with many resources available to me - and all quite by chance. I could have been born to a family of rag pickers on the dumps of Buenas Aires with no more resources than bare subsistence. Life does not present all equal resources or opportunities.

The point is that life is about taking whatever is available to us and making the best we can. That is the charge that life makes of us - including accepting our dependence on others as well. Life is indifferent to what we have or don’t have, but that we do what we can with what we have. From my perspective, to ask for more is ingratitude. We are alive. Is that not enough?

All that stuff from begging for things and thanking him and acting like a petty person with no self worth and no self respect when he has trampled all over you and continues to do so is praying .

Instead of doing that to yourself what you should do is get to work and start studying him , study his strong points and weak points and his behavior and use all that you have learned to nap him. .

This is really what discipline is all about .–while you are getting trampled over and beaten you do your best to learn and you learn.

He has no redeeming features. He is a tyrant . He is actually the perfect tyrant .catching him is not going to be easy . you’re going to have to wait and wait patiently without rushing without anxiety , knowing that you’re waiting and what you’re waiting for and that’s the act of worship he expects and respects . just holding back joyful in the knowledge that the great battle between man and he will come one day and when that day comes you will be ready to join the battle. Victory shall be man’s

Don’t t ever thank him because all that does is make him think he left something out. Don’t ask him for anything because what you want is not what you want .

Or maybe God brings wrath when that is what wisdom calls for, and withholds wisdom when we’re not ready for it…

This may very well be, for our interpretive forestructures are just as morally ambiguous as Joe-Blow down the street! However this also points to the fundamental commitment I spoke of, our “religious ground motive” to use Reformational language.

Absolutely.

Are these the only options? My suggestion is that wisdom is reason in the service of love. It is reason geared toward, and committed to, making and maintaining the unity of love. It seems to me that love is a hard thing to make, and an even harder thing to maintain, and that wisdom is what discerns the way.

I would want to expand the scope of wisdom beyond oneself. It is not discerning one’s own warp and woof, changing or not, but rather it is discerning, well, what is needed for us to unite!

I think a strong case can be made for Jesus as wisdom. But there is definitely a separation between Jesus and God… I would want to say that God is love, and Jesus is wisdom. Wisdom is the offspring of love, for it comes from love and it is for love (in its service), and through wisdom we come to know love. But yes, this locates wisdom within finitude.

I like to think that it is possible to see God face to face. Our limited perspectives might only be able to handle so much, but even Job testifies, in the end, to seeing God. Perhaps the secret is there?

Is it? What’s “alive”? Using a popular example, was Oliver wrong to ask for more? Isn’t the real wrong in this, and many other cases, those who horde, and share too little?

Yes, of course. Those who would would take advantage of their brother are everywhere, but Oliver wasn’t praying to a god, he was expressing a part of his dependency on his fellow man. Shame on those who ignored his plight and abused him. Shame on those who walked by the injured man at the side of the road and thanks to the good Samaritan who expressed the best of his humaness in stopping to help.

More to the point, Oliver was a child in innocence. I’ll assume that those of us in this discussion are no longer of that innocence. We know that life isn’t always “fair” or equal. We can hope that our brothers treat us within the golden rule, but there are no guarantees of that.

Perhaps another perspective: Prayers of petition are just another way of telling your god that he did not provide for you adequately. If I were a good creator, I would give you all the means and tools you need to be the best representive of your species regardless of the trials of being alive. I give you life and you tell me it isn’t enough? You disappoint me.

When I was at school I had a very wise old teacher. I respected that teacher very much and looked up to him.
He taught me so much and gave such good advice.

In my admiration, I had no issues whatsoever in asking to be taught more. This did not mean that I lacked respect for what I have already been taught; it meant that I admired the teacher’s wisdom so much and acknowledged my short coming that I could only desire to be taught.

You perceive asking to be one of ingratitude but it is possible to ask from gratitude, admiration and respect.

“Please teach me my wise old master”… it is very humbling and respectful to ask from those who have greater wisdom than me.

Would the compassionate teacher in such a situation say “you disappoint me? After all that I have taught and given. You are still dumb and selfish.”

What I do not understand about this thread is that alyoshka has stated his/her belief in god and then raised the issue of praying for Wisdom.

Do people disagree for asking to be taught or do you disagree with the existence of God.

If you disagree with the existence of God then maybe it is appropriate to start the 10 billionth discussion on “Does God Exist”

But I am having a little bit of trouble understanding what your objection is about praying for Wisdom.
If a compassionate and Wise God exists then (as a teacher) it would not be disappointed when a student asks for help.
On the contrary, there would be nothing more joyful for a compassionate and wise teacher to be asked by a student “please teach me”.
And a student would not be ungrateful in asking help from someone wiser and more compassionate.

That is the nature of a teacher and student relationship.

I am genuinely confused at the objection to this (irrespective of one’s belief or disbelief in God).

I personally do not believe in a God, but I understand the immeasurable good qualities of being humble.

Yet, if we might perceive Wisdom as “clarity”, is this simply to say that we are better to be blinded? Perhaps, though, rather, it is our false sense of what we are perceiving that is in question: perhaps God has graced us already with clarity, but we assume this means we must thereby also perceive something “clear”. Perhaps, rather, the tension of chaos and order does in fact reign the day (and, of course, night), and we are simply witnessing the confusion. Perhaps God’s wisdom is gained by virtue of witnessing our confusion on this point. Perhaps there is not even clearly God (or no-God, naturally), or predetermined moral standard-bearer. Perhaps morality is an epiphenomenon of experience.

Absolutely, in particular! :wink: (though I confess I ought to have Wiki’d “Reformational language” to be clear here #-o )

Yet, why would wisdom not also maintain the diversity of love? Why must it all be ratiocinated back into an ego? Are we but the tentacles of God’s thought? Then must we not be clear on seeing that He is not There? And that our prayer for wisdom is but a manifestation of His desire (aka. ignorance)? Such that tentative’s point of simply doing the living holds most value to the equation (God = no-God)?

…and yet again diversify…

And finitude is desire, and love its offspring?

Would it be fair to say there is no prayer for Job? Or better, that Job is without a prayer? That Job’s wisdom is his utter insignificance? And God’s love a whim?

I suggest the possibility that we teach God. And that His wisdom is His insignificance, His ego. I of course transgress many metaphysical prescriptions in doing so. 8-[

In so attempting to diminish God, I diminish myself, of course. “Diminish,” what a word! :slight_smile:

From urbandictionary.com/

Dick Swinging: Trying to out do one another, engage in a pissing contest (qv).

Pissing Contest: A pissing contest is any argument that just goes back and forth between two individuals but never gets resolved.

Joe: “I can piss farther than you can.”
Bob: “No you can’t!”
Joe: “Yes I can!”
Bob: “No you can’t!”
Joe: “Yes I can!”
Bob: “No you can’t!”
Joe: “Yes I can!”
Bob: “Prove it!”
Joe: “OK, you go first!”
Bob: “No, you go first!”
Joe: “No, you go first!”
Bob: “No, you go first!”
Joe: “No, you go first!”
… and so on.

Pete: “Man! That’s one helluva pissing contest you two guys are having.”

^^ :blush:

…well, when ya gotta go, as they say… The more the merrier!

If I’m not correct, though, I believe emptiness has something to do with an eventual resolution. :laughing:

I have no problems with asking another human being for help. That is an expression of our mutual dependency. But it is quite a different issue to ask a god, the universe, life, or whatever term you wish to use for the same. But perhaps this difference is one of belief. I have no belief in any god.

Let me ask, what is so special about the human animal? If we look at all life, each specie of plant and animal has the opportunity to come into being, mature, progenerate, and return to the flow. Do they ask for more? Some flourish and other perish in the various environments in which they find themselves. Do they complain? What part of sentience gives humanity the right to ask for more when the pattern of life is just to live as best it can?

Let us not play with words here. Which one is it … “believe” or know?

Then naturally you would not pray to god for wisdom.
If you did then naturally you would pray to god for wisdom.
These conclusions follow simple logic.

So I can conclude that your objection is not to praying … it is to god.

What person do you think about most in this world?
When you open first your eyes in the morning who is the first person that pops into your head?

Asking for wisdom is not about asking for more… it is about asking for less.

meditation,

If you need to petition a creator of some kind in prayer for anything at all, you certainly don’t need to consider anything I’ve said here. We all have different perspectives. If what I have written raises no questions for you to consider, that’s perfectly OK. We all deal with our spiritual nature as best we can.

Tentative,
I do want to walk your path and you do not want to walk my path.
So, let us then shake hands, wish each other the best of luck, and walk our separate ways.
In a few more years I will be dead and this discussion will be like ashes thrown into the wind.

Some years ago, a group of Tibetan monks came to the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston to create a beautiful sand painting in order to show the transcience of all that exists. They spent a week working on it. I watched them for a while one day, and it was a beautiful sight.

When they were finished, they then went to a local bayou and put the painting in the water and watched it dissolve. All things beautiful and strange dissolve as sand in the water of time, but they grace us while they last.

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