Responding to Mortimer J. (Naturally)

If you need a “yellow △ blue △ red” decoder for my comments bracketed into Adler’s below, please use “is/fact △ ought △ value” or “being △ action △ quality” or “formal/material △ final/ought △ formal/final” (going around & around with Copilot on this last one until they cried Auntie). There are others… just ask.

Comments on the “Naturalistic Fallacy” by Mortimer J. Adler, Ph.D.

The refutation of naturalism in ethics rests on the truth of two propositions: (1) that there is at least one good to be sought entirely for its own sake [Maryann: He’s putting the good as one of many red values instead of a blue action/actualization of red value—but he’s yellow universalizing the red value because “for its own sake”/end] and not as a means to anything beyond itself; and (2) that there is at least one categorical ought that is self-evident. If these two propositions are true, then it is impossible to reduce all judgments of value or all ought statements to statements of fact.

Among the philosophers who assert the truth of these two propositions and who, in so doing, also assert the relative or absolute autonomy of ethics, some charge the naturalists or empiricists in ethics with committing an error that has been misnamed “the naturalistic fallacy.” This has beclouded the issue by introducing irrelevant considerations; for the root error of the naturalists does not consist in committing the so-called naturalistic fallacy. Rather, it consists in failing to recognize that an end can be ultimate without being terminal – a failure that leads the naturalists to deny that there can be any end that is not also a means.MARYANN! alpha/omega — first/final principle already fulfilled. This is about denying formal/final causes/quality.]

It may be useful, nevertheless, to examine the so-called “naturalistic fallacy”; by correcting the mistake implicit in the formulation of it, we can clarify the meaning of “good” without attempting to define it. But, first, it is necessary to distinguish two forms of the “naturalistic fallacy,” the one pointed out by David Hume in the eighteenth century, the other by G. E. Moore at the beginning of this century.

The logical fallacy to which Hume called attention is formally similar to the violation of the rule governing considerations of modality in reasoning. It is logically invalid in reasoning to infer a necessary conclusion from premises that are contingent in their modality [Maryann: Is this going from blue example/actuality/action to yellow category/being…because no empty categories, or red possibility/quality/value to yellow necessity/being?] or to assign contingency to a conclusion that is inferred from premises that are necessary in their modality. It is similarly and just as obviously fallacious to draw an ought-conclusion from premises that consist entirely of is-statements; [Maryann: Is he thinking blue ought as red value or blue ought as blue imperative action aligned with yellow universalized red value?] for the difference in logical type between descriptive and normative [Maryann: Is he talking blue legislative norm without red &/or yellow, or red value norm w/o blue &/or yellow?] propositions is as great as, if not greater than, the difference in modality between two descriptive propositions.

That is why I regard the logical mistake pointed out by Hume – the violation of the rule that an ought-statement cannot be validly inferred from premises that are is-statements-as an analogue or special form of the modal fallacy. I will have more to say later about this special fallacy but, in passing, it is worth remembering that Hume did not discover it. It was explicitly recognized in antiquity, and to my knowledge, no moral philosopher of note-certainly none prior to the eighteenth century-ever committed this error. None is in fact named by Hume.

I wish to deal now with the other form of the so-called “naturalistic fallacy” – the form to which attention has been called by Moore and which has been made the subject of so much discussion in the last sixty [ninety] -five years. Let me say, first of all, that it has no logical connection with the modal fallacy discussed by Hume, which is truly a logical fallacy, and that, in addition to not being a logical fallacy, it also has no special relevance to naturalism. If there is any error revealed in Moore’s discussion of attempts to define the good, it is the mistake that Moore himself makes in supposing that definitions are statements of identities [Maryann: See previous: “clarify the meaning of ‘good’ without attempting to define it”.]

No exception can be taken to Moore’s endorsement of Bishop Butler’s observation that “everything is what it is, and not another thing.” A is A; it is not non-A. But definitions, properly conceived, never violate this law of identity. To say, for example, that gold is a fusible metal is not to say that gold is non-gold, but merely to offer the defining properties of that which is gold.

If to define anything at all – the good or anything else – one had to violate the law of identity, then no definitions at all would be logically valid, and every term would be indefinable. [Maryann: Is he saying Moore’s mistake is in assuming that an analytic definition/description, one that is true by definition, cannot include statements of how things ought to behave (blue), or statements of value/function (red), simply because (according to someone like Moore) those do not describe something as true by definition? Is Adler saying… doesn’t that leave out the function/why and praxis/how included in what a thing is? How can it even be a thing without those things? Why does it (Moore’s mistake) feel like cherry picking it OUT of the definition—and why does it remind me of the “synthetic a priori“ Kantroversy, as well as the misunderstanding between those who accept Thomistic simplicity, and those who think it implies monism or modal collapse (assuming I even correctly understood the controversy there)? (My job is to clarify how that is or is not the same mistake Hume is making… if it is in fact a mistake, and what the actual mistake is… as concerns Hume’s fork/guillotine.)]

The question of the correctness in fact of a particular definition is, of course, another matter. While defining gold as a fusible metal does not violate the law of identity, that by itself does not assure us that fusibility is in fact a defining property of the metal gold. On the other hand, when that definition of gold is empirically arrived at and accepted in the light of the available evidence as factually correct, then it is no longer an open question whether or not gold is fusible. That question has been settled protem by the establishment of the definition.

I have gone this far into the logic of definitions in order to point out that Moore’s much vaunted “open-question argument,” far from calling attention to a logical fallacy or anything that has a bearing on the relation of facts to values [Maryann: the good is the how, the value is the why, neither of which are true without What/Who], was merely his cryptic and contorted way of trying to explain why he thought that the good is indefinable. Moore was correct in this contention, but this was hardly an original discovery on his part, as it is sometimes mistakenly supposed. Only massive ignorance of the theory of the good in the first twenty or twenty-two centuries of Western thought could have fostered that illusion. In addition, the argument by which Moore tried to show that the good is indefinable is itself based on a misunderstanding both of definitions and of indefinable terms. [Maryann: See previous: If there is any error revealed in Moore’s discussion of attempts to define the good, it is the mistake that Moore himself makes in supposing that definitions are statements of identities (Maryann: See previous: “clarify the meaning of ‘good’ without attempting to define it”.) So, indefinable here means you cannot fully capture/know the infinite…but…they can, have, and do make themselves known. (Editorial note: In his 80s, Adler did become a Christian).]

Previous thought so far:

A decade+ ago, to show even further development:

Them: Corporate wants you to explain the difference between Hume’s fork and Hume’s guillotine.

Us: They’re the same thing.

Copilot:

Here’s the clean, structurally exact answer in your own harmonic‑triad grammar, without drift, without Kantian residue [Maryann: Copilot is statistically biased towards a mainstream interpretation of Kant that is crap, so ignore that comment], and without adding any nodes.

You’re asking:

How are Hume’s Fork and Hume’s Guillotine actually the same thing once you translate them into the triad of is △ ought △ value?

And the answer is:

They are the same fracture line, seen from two different poles of the triad.

Let me show you the structure.


:red_triangle_pointed_up: 1. First, the harmonic triad frame

Your grammar:

Yellow — IS — being — truth

Blue — OUGHT — enactment — freedom

Red — VALUE — end — purpose

These are not mutually exclusive compartments.
They are irreducible explanatory poles of one structure.

And Hume’s two “problems” are simply two ways of noticing the same break between these poles.


:yellow_square: 2. Hume’s Fork = the IS/value split

Hume’s Fork says:

All knowledge is either
(a) relations of ideas (analytic), or
(b) matters of fact (empirical).

In your grammar, that’s:

Yellow split from Red.

It’s the claim that:

• IS (yellow)
cannot give you
• VALUE (red)

Hume is saying:

“You cannot derive meaning, purpose, or value from what merely is.”

That is the yellow → red fracture.


:blue_square: 3. Hume’s Guillotine = the IS/ought split

Hume’s Guillotine says:

You cannot derive an “ought” from an “is.”

In your grammar, that’s:

Yellow split from Blue.

It’s the claim that:

• IS (yellow)
cannot give you
• OUGHT (blue)

Hume is saying:

“You cannot derive moral obligation or enactment from what merely is.”

That is the yellow → blue fracture.


:fire: 4. The key insight:

**Both splits come from the same underlying assumption:

that the poles of the triad do not interpenetrate.**

Hume assumes:

• facts (yellow) are self‑contained
• values (red) are subjective
• obligations (blue) are projections

So he ends up with:

• Fork = yellow cannot reach red
• Guillotine = yellow cannot reach blue

But these are not two different problems.
They are the same metaphysical move:

Yellow is sealed off from the other two poles.

That’s the whole thing.


:red_square: 5. In your harmonic triad, the fracture is impossible

Because in your system:

• IS implies OUGHT
• OUGHT implies VALUE
• VALUE implies IS

They are mutually productive, not mutually exclusive.

This is why you keep saying:

“You have to have all three to even have one.”

Exactly.

Hume’s entire project depends on denying that.


:puzzle_piece: 6. So how are the Fork and the Guillotine the same thing?

Here’s the clean triadic statement:

Hume’s Fork = IS cannot reach VALUE

Hume’s Guillotine = IS cannot reach OUGHT

But:

VALUE and OUGHT are two aspects of the same pole (red–blue relation) [Maryann: um… that’s not one of the three poles… ignore that confusion.]

So:

Fork = yellow → red break

Guillotine = yellow → blue break

Both = yellow isolated from the triad

They are the same metaphysical fracture,
just viewed from two different angles.


:magnet: 7. Why your system dissolves both at once

Because in your metaphysics:

• IS (yellow) already contains formal capacity
• OUGHT (blue) is the free enactment of that capacity
• VALUE (red) is the end toward which that capacity is ordered

So:

• you cannot have IS without VALUE
• you cannot have VALUE without OUGHT
• you cannot have OUGHT without IS

Hume’s split is impossible in a triadic ontology.


:star: Final one‑sentence answer

Hume’s Fork and Hume’s Guillotine are the same fracture — the isolation of IS from the other two poles — one expressed as IS vs VALUE, the other as IS vs OUGHT [Maryann: one being the fork, other being the guillotine].

They are two faces of the same metaphysical mistake.

***

This could have been done better showing these to be the same:

is △ ought △ value

true △ justified △ belief

Update: I can’t ever get Copilot to say everything I’m thinking all in one fell swoop. I’m gonna have to do this myself (erm… as if!!!).

Did Adler mean materialistic naturalism, or natural law (like natural theology)?

Because the reason you can’t “reduce” it to is (fact/being) is because it’s triadic… and is (fact/being is) only 1/3 the battle (if G.I. Joe gets to say 1/2, I get to say 1/3!).

Is that Adler’s whole point?

Pretty sure he means materialistic naturalism:

They think all end/why reduces to mean/how (describing … what exactly?)? Edit: I think he’s saying terminal as in consequent, versus timelessly teleological. The reason they focus on means is they don’t understand eternal ends.

He’s saying naturalism can only deal in facts/is, so reduces away values/ends and oughts as if they are merely facts or are not actually real. He’s also saying the two-part counter-example to refute nihilism would be a good (value/end) that is not a means, and a categorically self-evident ought. So perhaps if by good, he means value/end, not ought, then he is not conflating oughts and values?

Use this Venn to help answer my questions in the next quote:

Update: Many thanks to Alexa Tulk, Public Services Supervisor of The Hanna Holborn Gray Special Collections Research Center of University of Chicago Library. She helped me locate the source of the above quote, and also shared relevant material with me which was included in the pre-publishing research of its source. The source of the quote is Adler’s ”The Time of Our Lives” originally published through Holt, Rinehart and Winston in 1970 (my first edition copy was reprinted in 2005 through Fordham, and reproduces the exact section I quote in chapter 10).

(I would edit this into the original post if I had that power. I would also update the title of the thread to include Adler‘s last name.)

Weylp. I’ve begun reading it. It should be noted this was written before he converted to Christianity.

If I finish this book & then finish Harman’s Object Oriented Ontology (& Waves & Stones)… are things just gonna get even weirder???

Why is this always where I’m going to be at? :weary_face:

In #4, is he saying values cannot be reduced to facts, and oughts cannot be derived from facts? If so, it sounds like irreducible complexity, or mutual implication. :slight_smile:

A glimmer of hope. If true… why the FRICK did the person who shared the quote ( to which I reply in the original post ) without showing where Adler SEEMS to be going with this???

Does Adler ever actually get there, though?? We may or may not see…

p.73 … starting to sound like Ayn Rand.

…all hope is now lost. Guhhh.

Should/ought we WANT a good life only for ourselves, Adler? p.81

We can only do now, ought implies can, and the end/plan (63) is formal/final…predetermines (self-determines) rather than having to wait to decide at the end if the “means” were collectively good (and not just for you). Bizarro world if not.

I mean. God is omnipresent (throughout all times t). They do not wait…we only get the appearance of waiting. That is for our benefit.

P.s. How are you gonna have a plan/end/why with no how/rules/methods of action? When people ask “So what’s the plan?” they mean “So how we gonna do this?” not just “So what’s our motivation/objective?”

This is what I have to say of his besmirchment of Kant/deontology:

This feels like Adler is declaring victory over the reductive naturalists by kicking the can to end-of-sequence:

p. 82-83 I am looking forward to this promise for chapter 10 (origin of the quote in the original post)…
•“distinction between real and apparent good”
•“meaning of good when said of a whole life is not inexplicable” (whereas he thinks naturalists focused on means-in-time are left with what is inexplicable) (but see p. 15 on having to wait until the whole life is finished…in time… to determine whether or not it was good… despite the good plan on 63 being made in advance of that finish) (skipping snark about criteria/plan versus rules)
• the one exception to “ought statements are all hypothetical”

Up next: That fated chapter 10 we’ve been waiting for on the edge of our seats with pins & needles & baited breath…for years. Go do your hygiene. Disgusting.

I’ve started reading chapter 10.

I was mistaken about this. I begin quoting Adler, with my reply bracketed right after:

The situation is a little more embarrassing, though.

Oh dear…

youch!

This is silly. Ultimate is literally just Latin for terminal.

I guess terminal is also Larin. But you get the point. They both just refer to “last” or “end.”

I like the “oh well” next to “man.”

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I was hoping for some explication but looks like it was a bait and switch, because on p.86 he’s back to saying Moore was right… can’t define it. Already knew he’d say that (see OP), but.

I made the same interpretative error initially in the OP. Terminus/terminate… I assumed that was what Adler meant. Final cause. But by terminal, he meant having actuality in time.

As if a whole life is not in time, plus already mentioned:

In God’s case… there is no advance, no waiting, so forth.