You’re perching to the choir, I completely understand and can accept the explicit need for the choice between Good and Evil and the need for painful consequences. I am talking about the laws of nature not being perfect as you claim. This could not be, the laws are so interconnected and complex that any imperfection would cause a complete collapse and would make God a liar by being divided and ignorant. My point is that it needed to be this way and this cause and effect needed to have painful consequences when we choose poorly and all this is about allowing the cream to rise to the top so to speak. Those that will, will be separated from those that wont and these perfect laws cause this and even force Truth to be seen and known by their affect. If everyone does not see and understand Gods Truth then there can be no separation or judgment. I think the problem is your leaning on the story of Adam and Eve to explain what is obvious to anyone that will use their God given tools to observe the reality of his laws that are here to prove his truth.
If you insist on leaning on the bible for you understanding then I can point you to some threads where I explain all the logical fallacies of God using written word to convey his knowledge to us and that will really bake your noodle trying to explain your way out of the mountain of evidence I can show.
please point out your major points briefly here. I don’t think there will be problems with reconciling the bible and reasoning. I think, under careful examination, God’s word is much deeper than first realized, and reveals ascending truths that come to light the deeper we look.
I think we’re talking two different things here, which was my fault- Good/Evil vs. perfection of natural laws, but I think the two are inter-related. I think the natural law could have been perfect, albiet with the presence of un-manifested evil. It wasn’t until after evil was manifested on this earth, that God cursed everythign- man, the ground, the natural laws etc. God meant it when He said “You shall surely die.”
And let’s be clear, althouhg I don’t think logical reasoning conflicts with belief in God’s word, and can infact be strengthened, I do still have problems with some aspects, so mine isn’t a strict ‘God said it, that’s good enough’ attitude.
For instance, I have a problem that seems to go in a circle in relation to this issue “of evil/good= why did God allow?” Yes, we can come up with reasonings that show a good probability, yet, the basic problem still, to me, exists, if God didn’t want puppets, and gave us free will, then won’t Heaven be nothign but puppets with no possibility of sinning? If so, is this a superior good than the good we currently know thanks to knowledge of good and evil?
If so, why introduce a temporary system of free will, with all it’s evil consequences, only to give us what is supposed to be the ultimate good of puppetry when we exit this world"? Can it be argued that being unable to sin is hterefore a lesser or greater good than free will? If greater, then why didn’t God just start that system here and thus avoid all the evils associated with free will? Yep- the ‘true love’ argument holds water, but while it is a great good, it’s evidently not the greatest good IF heaven will not have such a system. I’ll have to flesh this out a bit more carefully if you don’t see what I’m trying to get at. Perhaps these issues have been satisfactorily ‘resolved’ in philosophy, but if so, I’m unaware. Will it even matter when we are in heaven? The angels seem capable of extreme joy, Reasoning is good, but it’s not the end-all of understanding, and while we might find what appear to be some ‘logical fallicies’ with our finite understandings, in the end, it might prove to have been a lower understanding than we assumed, when all is revealed to us in the after-life.
Written words were not available to all men form the beginning, in fact most couldn’t read or write until modern times and even now its not 100%, strike one.
Words are easily manipulated and taken out of context and when they are reinterpreted into different languages it is even more flawed, strike two.
God doesn’t write books nor does he have a pen, strike three.
Furthermore there are many clues in the bible, first and foremost is the fact that nowhere in the bible does it ever say that written words are necessary, not even Jesus said anything about this as being necessary to know Gods will for us. The early prophets and characters in the bible that had good knowledge of God and his intent never had any bible to go by, bibles were invented many thousands of years later. The only time Jesus mentioned written scripture was to show the Jews their hypocrisy and let them know that their worshiping of the letter of the laws was wrong, he even broke the commandment about keeping the Sabbath holy, which was against the written word and he showed them why it was wrong.
Then there is the part about what makes us alive, most agree it’s the Spirit of God that is the life force and is present in each and every life form, this of course would allow a direct connection to God and his will for us since his Spirit is in all of us and this method would be full proof and would satisfy all the plot holes left open by using written words that couldn’t possibly reach every single human for all of time. I cold go on, but this is just a quick summery as you requested.
Evil was manifested and present on earth in the form of a serpent before the act of Adam and Eve was committed according to the bible so it was already manifest on earth but not by man. Either way, this does not make sense, no reason to wait for man to fall, no logic in the idea that he had choice between good and evil from the beginning (two trees to choose from) in perfect world and then when he finally chose evil the world that was governed by perfect laws suddenly were made imperfect. If this is so then why didn’t the creation of Satan make God part good and part evil? I mean if one act of someone that has a choice can affect Gods perfect laws that are part of him then why cant this one act make God imperfect as well. Remove all the bible stories and use simple logic and it all works out. God was not responsible for the choices of those he created just like we are not responsible for the choices of our children when they grow up. Satan created evil on his own volition and it had nothing to do with Gods will, if it did he would be divided and then we have a paradox from what Jesus said about being divided and not standing.
I think God had to allow evil because he allowed choice and Satan wanted to be God, so he chose selfishness to replace God and was not allowed to, then there were two forces as God gave much power of creation to all his symbiotic creations, even us. This was a great plan for separating those who had a like will to Gods and chose Truth from those who wanted to make their own. Who wants to hang around self serving liars?
Not God nor me.
Common questions and again you have to throw out the dogma created by bibles written by superstitious men, God doesn’t work that way. There is no heaven in the sky, we were never meant to set around resting on our laurels for eternity. We will still have choice just like the stories of the Angles that obviously had choice to follow Satan and be cast from Heaven. The story of Heaven is an attempt to represent what would now be called another dimension, one of no physical elements and we are physical beings with bodies and we will always have some form of physical body and choice but the ones that choose wisely will be of good heart and nature and capable of accepting Truth just like the good child that minds his parents. Even if the good child slips up the good parent knows it is a mistake and not form a rebellious heart so he is forgiven and corrected properly. There will be no perfection in any of Gods creatures that have choice, the only perfection will be in our choice to do as God pleases and we were not meant to be in heaven praising God forever, there would be no point. The evil child however is the child that wont accept what Gods Truth has to say and will continually try to make their own truth in contention with Gods, this is why there is separation, the bad apple spoils the bunch. In this case I don’t see how the evil ones will be given a body as they have rejected God by insisting on making their own Truth and being god themselves, just like Satan. So naturally it would be a contradiction to allow them to dwell in a place of God so they must go to the Void of nothing on the outer reaches of Gods creation that is whizzing along at the theoretical speed of light. It is they who will no longer have the gift of the body that was given by God since they rejected it, we that choose wisely will get another body and dwell in this physical dimension forever, with choice.
Now if you read the bible carefully and check the fundamentals of what I say here you should see that there is no fundamental contradictions save a few passages in the NT, none of which are the Red Letters of Jesus. The OT is just plain toilet paper IMO and shows a completely different humanized God then what Jesus said and acted. The fact that this version I heard in my heart and have proven with the reality of what I observe agreeing with so much and yet showing the areas that directly contradict not only with my version but with other parts in the bible shows me that the bible is completely a construct of man with much flawed writing as well as much writing inspired by God. Its a mixed bag of Truth and lies like all that we touch.
However, none of this was ever intended by God to be written down and touted as the perfect divine word of God and since it was it has caused nothing but wars, death and strife. I’m sure God didnt intend or want that.
Sorry for the run on sentences and bad grammar, but I’m in a hurry.
You’re welcome to your opinion. I see the accusation that much in the bible is in contradiction, however, when these contradictions are brought up specifically, it becoems clear that one of two things are happening- the person making the accusation is taking references out of context- which always leads to error, or two, they present issues that are easily explained, yet the accusatiosn still fly despite the explanations. The old testament prophets prophesied with 100% accuracy every one of the 600 some odd events that would happen and did happen accurately. If you’ll take a closer look at the word, you will see that the old testament heralded Christ’s life, death life again all through the old testament. Even the account of Adam and Eve had meaning beyond simply their lives. Abraham’s life as well- Davids etc. As I metnioned, if someone would just take the time to dig deeper, it would become more than clear that the whole word of God is not a result of mere finite reasonings, but has much much deeper implicatiosn and meanings. The apostle Paul pointed out many similarities between Adam and Christ, but there is much more when you dig even deeper. When you do, it becomes clear that all scripture is the Holy Spirit inspired/written word of God through man. I’ll be happy to give some examples, but it might take pages there is so much that is simply supernatural about the word of God
Much of the old testament looked forward in time thousands of years and foretold of how life would be under the new law of Christ’s sacrifice. On the surface, it wouldn’t appear that way when reading hte old testament, but I assure you that deeper study reveals these truths and more than justifies the fact that His word was indeed inspired by God who’s understandings go beyond mere man’s fallible reasoning.
Sure we do, even today we can see evidence of this in small tribes and third world countries. The aborigines only have paintings on rocks and dirt and not one of these paintings had the plan of salvation outlined. Many isolated cultures still don’t read and write to this day and we can see a progression of abilities over time so it doesn’t take much logic to support the idea that at the beginning no one read or wrote and no one was born with a book in their hand. Certainly Adam wasn’t.
And all these folks from various walks of life had a different idea of God and his plan for us, each has their idea of enlightenment and salvation and many don’t even believe in salvation. Wouldn’t that be a problem?
What’s to remember, do you have to remember that if someone does something to you that you don’t like that you shouldn’t do it to them? Why would God create us all alone in the dark and without his plan for us until we could achieve the ability to read and write, that would leave a lot of people out of his plan. You know what’s right and wrong in your heart don’t you? Do you need that written down to remind you?
Yes, my point exactly. Look at how Jesus taught, he used real world examples and parables as evidence to support the Truth in his heart, exactly what I am doing. Jesus never used scripture to teach about Gods will for us, he only used them to show our hypocrisy and where we contradict, that’s what written words lead to, contradiction. Also why cannot anyone with the Truth in their heart be a spokesperson for God, why does it have to be a chosen prophet?
But I don’t care what the bible says unless it agrees with logic of observed cause and effect. Jesus never said anything he didn’t backup with this. There is no logic in a heaven in the sky with our spirits floating around doing nothing but parsing God day and night. Surly God didn’t create us for the purpose of massaging his ego.
That was my point, look above, I showed the difference in great detail and most of it you cut out. In fact I dealt with most every rebuttal you provided in my post earlier, then you posted back only parts of my quotes then acted like I didn’t explain or support that assertian.
What’s going on here, is this some kind of game?
Christ is God incarnate, I’m talking about his creations with choice, can you not see the difference? Did God create Christ, can God create himself?
I would like to read the part that talks about the physical body in hell, can you point me toward that?
Self supporting evidence is hardly acceptable, I could say the same about my writing and would be correct.
Please explain the personality conflict between the OT God and what Jesus said about peace and love. The OT God lead armies into battle and exterminated everything in his path, even children and animals. The NT God says to forgive and let live and Love and do unto others. Not once did Jesus talk about violence as a way to solve anything. The OT God sought to kill Moses over the circumcision of his child yet was unsuccessful. The OT God had dialog with Satan and allowed him to take everything from Job to prove a point. There are many more I could point out, but that should be sufficient to show the contrast between what Jesus taught and the OT God.
I think you know the problem with your argument- taking isolated incidents and trying to apply it to all of mankind is nothing but applied assumptions.
They did? Because my bible shows they all had the exact same ideas of God and of God’s comming gift of salvation through Christ.
Yes He did use scripture but not even sure why we’re even discussing this point?
Noone said you had to be a prophet, however, you’ll never prophesy as did the Holy Spirit inspired writers of the bible, and much of what we say gets all tangled, and messed up in just short bursts of speech- contradictions all over thep lace- but, the Word of God, written over thousands of years and by differing cultures and people all owrked flawlessly together?
You beleive in a Supernatural God that created things by breaking the laws of nature, yet now that we’ve all been created in a supernatural environment and by supernatural means you go back to requiring a supernatural God to act within the bounds of the natural laws? Christ’s ressurection was in itself a supernatural event witnessed by many
the books toward the end of bible talk about it- you can also google what will hell be like or somethign like that- I don’t have specific verses right off the top of my head.
There is no conflict- God executed His divine right to soveriegn judgement on those who would not obey. Christ did not teach to live and let live- He taught us to defend ourselves and to be responsible- even if that means having to take lives- He as well spoke of His second comming and how it would necessarily be violent, as did the prophets and new testament writers. Love doesn’t mean being irresponsible and letitng people kill or murder you. Disobedience will be severely dealt with, but don’t mistake God’s current innaction as being His changing from a God who soveriegnly and righteously demands justice. Yep- we’re to love our neighbor- but love doesn’t allow irresposnible actiosn to go unchallenged- that is irresponsible in it’self.
That’s not what I’m doing, I’m showing an example that should show you that even in a time of 80% literacy there are still cases of those that cant read or write nor will they ever be exposed to the gospel. God cant have an incomplete plan with loopholes, if even one person for all time is left out of his will because of circumstances then it would not be fair and that would make God a liar.
If you cant even see this then there is no hope for this discussion to continue, you are either so completely brainwashed by indoctrination or so stubborn and unwilling to investigate the evidence that you wont believe anything, no matter how rational and logical to discount the bible as anything but divinely perfect and from the hand of God himself.
Sigh…
You don’t get out much do you?
No ism has a plan for salvation that I know of, and that only scratches the surface.
Nice that once again you take only part of my quote and leave the most pertinent parts out so you can respond without getting caught in an outright contradiction.
You forgot the part about how God/Jesus never said that we need the bible or to reference the bible or even the laws of the bible, in fact Jesus said quite the opposite, he even refuted the complete validity of the Ten Commandments to the rich man as a reference to salvation. Please, there is nothing that even suggests that the bible was ever intended by God to be the beacon of Truth or the revelation to his secrets.
Why, is the Holy Spirit different now compared to the days of the prophets? Everything you say has no logic what so ever, you should think first before you answer. You can’t answer any of the “whys†and every illogical assertion causes more.
Also why do you keep skirting around the FACT that there were many years on earth when there was no written books or tablets available to anyone at all. Again you disingenuously keep leaving these important points out with ever rebuttal. Deal with them all in context or stop playing games, you either can or can’t explain all these loop holes.
How did Cane know he was wrong for killing Able? Did a booming voice come down from heaven, or did he feel it in his heart? If it was either, what’s different about God today that doesn’t allow him to do the same?
You cant answer this because it’s illogical for God to change or have some powers at one time in this world then lose them or choose not to use them at another, that would be inconsistent and contradictory.
You must concede on this at least or I will have to deem you completely irrational and unwilling to listen to any probabilities that the bible may not be the way God talks to us.
This is most confusing, why do you say this? I have never once contradicted myself on this, I have never said anything that could even be mistaken to mean that I ever thought God could or has ever broken his own laws, in fact I continually assert the opposite and this is one of my main tenets to my foundation of belief. Your just plain wrong about this, you’ll have to show me my exact quote that leaves you to believe this.
Just paraphrase to the best of your ability or at least give me a chapter because I don’t believe it exists so I’m calling you on this. If you can’t show any support then I will call this as I see it, a bluff.
Yes there is a conflict, Jesus specifically said and showed by example how we HUMANS are to act and no violence was ever condoned under any circumstances. The OT God lead people into battle and they wiped out everything, even women and children, this is the OT God showing people by example how to act and what to do. Can’t you see the obvious contradiction? Jesus talked about sinners and judgment too, but never said or showed that man was ever to execute any of this judgment himself, in fact he said the exact opposite. The people of the OT used their own swords and hands to kill, and murder those who posed no threat, certainly the dogs and goats were no threat to anyone.
. Sorry buy I got you dead to rights here, your cornered and there is no way out, this is as plain as it gets. You must deal with this contradiction or allow it as evidence to my point, no game playing here and no skirting direct questions, no more cherry picking a few sentences out of full context and just dealing with a few pedestrian points. If you really have anything to bring to this debate then you shouldn’t be afraid of dealing with every point I bring up in context.
Last chance to get started making a case, so far you haven’t even got out of the starting block.
It was until you started side stepping all the evidence I was showing as irrelevant without logical explanation or just ignoring it. Sorry your so thin skinned that you got your feelings hurt, if you were an adult then this shouldn’t be the case. Of course your probably just amping up the drama because you know you cant refute any of the points without contradicting yourself or the bible, shame you cant admit it.
Your not one of the forum teenagers by any chance are you?
Why do you ask? Are you afraid of being dethroned as resident teenager?
I didn’t sidestep anyhting- I answered al lthe relevent points- much of what you wrote was in the same category, and irrelevent ot making hte point further- nothing more than ‘same question asked differently.’
Not amping up the drama king- just tired of immature rhetoric
I reworded it because you seemed to misunderstand, as your replies did not logically refute the issue at all. How about I make it easy and just ask you to deal with the last part about the contradiction between the OT and what Jesus said, specifically the points I brought up in detail about how there is a difference in example of how God lead people into battle and how Jesus led people into peace and non judgment, can you explain?
The reason I asked if you were a teen is because I would cut you some slack for lack of experience in such subjects.