the performance art/scientific experiment aspects. What actually does happen? Last time, as Sabina, he certainly joined in, but I Think he actually was not the initiator. Now, I know he was permabanned, so it doesn’t matter, but that’s not my Point. I Think, on the scientific experiment side, it would be interesting to see who starts the degeneration into personal attacks. if the worst case scenario happens.
(also interested in a side discussion of what actually sets this kind of thing in motion : I see certain kinds of posturing, implicit insults, incredulity as implicit put down, condescension and ‘suggestions’ and the like that are all generally accepted, but when chronic or coupled with bad reasoning and/or poor Reading end up being at least as insulting as what gets called out as insults. In the past he certainly liked to set off making the I am dominant noises and insults, but claims to not intend to start this here.)
Permabans seem a bit much: if people actually want to come back years later - and in this case actually have read some stuff and can write essays that do provoke intellectual discussion, I see small loss potential - he gets rebanned - and significant gain potential. Not that I particularly agree with Satyr, but I noticed that even though I lost interest in Sabina since it wasn’t Sabina and in the noise ‘she’ seemed to lose track of my posts, I realized that at the very least there was this entity raising quite a number of issues and in a way that is not common here. Diversity in ideas and style generally being positive, I see this as a, well, positive.
Come on! A Little experimental, one off exploration.
Performance art. Satyr comes to ILP, again, claiming to not be the one who will start things. The Community bristles, some outraged, some positive to the idea, most not caring perhaps even noticing. IOW someone who wants, after years and years, to come here and has stuff to say. Must it be a bad experience?
To your suggestion, I don’t really have any objection. Actually, it’s good, and I support the general sentiment behind it. Whatever.
But I’m curious about you, now…
A few months ago, you told Satyr that he needed to get offline. You said that he had stopped actually responding to people, and that he had lost the connection between what he said and what he was saying it about. Classic Rock Satyr was repeating the classic hits, you said. Stagnant. Unresponsive. Satyr had two or three boxes to put people in—and that was it, you said. You called him a caricature of himself of 5 years ago. And a real life like the one of prancing around the borders of ILP “would be fucked”, according to you. These would sting, but you actually went deeper, with the stuff about “know thyself in moderation”—the heading of that forum he partcipates at—implying (I thought) that Satyr wasn’t just tired of other people, he was probably tired of himself.
I read your proposal with the above comments from your post at KTS in my memory.
So, what has changed, Moreno? As you know, I’ve participated at KTS as “Mo”, and I log in and check out the site every once in awhile. Which OP did I miss? Or was it something else entirely that changed your mind? …Or maybe your proposal is made because you think something like, when it comes to interesting discussions, the sum is greater than the parts… and so you can put some uninteresting people together, and that’ll be interesting to watch. Is that it? But what you’re saying sounds a bit like you just want to see who throws a cheap shot first. Really, what’s the point? I should probably just assume that you think the vacation has been long enough (if there even was one), and hence why the proposal doesn’t conflict with what you last said. That’s probably what I think.
It seems to me Satyr is saying he will try to not be the instigator. Now it’s not so much that this implies a willingness to fit in - which I haven’t seen before - but the whole tone of this post. He really wants in here. He really feels like he has been mistreated, and, in any case, that he should be given the chance to demonstrate he may have changed. It’s this ‘really wanting in here’ that makes me curious, enough wanting for him to now imply flexibility and a willingness to do in Rome do as Romans - though they should also.
Have I really changed my sense of where he’s at? No. Though what I did was more a mirroring back the kinds of things he claims to be doing when he is insulting or triggering people. He claims or implies that really he is bringing out their real issues and selves and helping them - via insults and condescension - though, sadly, they rarely let themselves be helped. So help or ‘help’ or meta-help: ‘really Satyr, you can learn from stuff like this.’ And some nastiness on my part. I don’t know if my attack/‘help’ was correct. I think it actually did have some truth in it, and reading his interactions with you at Know thyself (and here as Sabina), I regot the impression that he is not a careful reader - he sees shapes in the mist - and also writes ambiguously but reacts to any confusion or misinterpretations as if they were the readers fault. I don’t think he was like this years ago. Or not so like this.
But right or wrong I see the issue more as what should ILP do than what does Satyr need for his growth. I think his return actually presents an opportunity for a solid, honorable community test. Has he really been treated fairly, or is he given less slack because the mods tend towards liberal positions, especially around certain issues he focuses on? Who does set the deterioration of threads into personal attacks, him or people defending what they consider obvious and moral with righteous anger? ‘Sabina’s’ short life here leaves that question open, I would say, at least.
I suppose I wonder if I have responded with bias myself. I think he has been an instigator and has set things off through condescension and dominance noise making. But I think a community test is not a bad idea. Couple that with his wanting to come back here for years and my thinking permabans are probably off, I figure, let’s see what happens.
Worst case, it deteriorates…either he is banned again - which does not seem so terrible - and I at least can determine if he was treated fairly or not (to my own satisfaction anyway) - or the deterioration is because of other members reactions to him, which is also worth seeing.
Better cases, he stays and contributes and he does have a different style and way of posting and I think that’s a positive. Further I might see what it is he wants. I mean, why does he want to come here, given his persona, the way he judges people here, and to such a degree the great injustice has bled into being an issue for other people around him. A good sign this is very important to him.
A cynic might think that he simply wants more venues to lecture, but I am struck lately by how hurt he actually comes across. That there is something else going on here. So more curiosity. Curiosity is a big motive.
A little sense this might be a kind of clearing up a communal issue.
A dash of it’s the right thing to do.
My OP may have seemed a bit cavalier, hoping to rubberneck an accident. But I was trying to get across a sense of lightness. We are not voting him into office or giving him control of a region of a country. Worstcase, he gets banned again and maybe we learn something in the process.
Oh, yes, you’re right, sum of the parts. It seemed fuller here.
I don’t really think a ban is that bad, and a permban that very terrible. He came in as Sabina. He was recognized like a long lost fallen star, almost instantly recognized. I think Sabina has not been shown herself to be a good enough actress. If she were, then this discussion probably would not be needed to test social reality at ILP. She could have stayed Sabina, and that may have been that.
So I believe the stage may be set for another showdown, and this time, it may come in a different way, an a surprising way. Who knows? If she really wants to stay.
Moreno, below I’ve posted what Satyr had to say about your proposal that we let him back in. After some long-rambling post in which he called me a bull-dyke a bunch of times. You still think it’s a good idea to un-ban a member who has never abided by his perma-ban to begin with, and who has this to say about your proposal? –
If conversing with Satyr is such an overwhelming need, post the link to KTS. ILP isn’t the be-all end-all of the world for anyone. Satyr is on the internet and has a website of his own. ILP-ers can go to that site any time they want. I have no idea why he would even want to come back to ILP. He spent the vast majority of his time dissing everyone on the site. If ILP is such a dismal site, why would he even stick his Sabina nose in? Just post the link and let the curious join up. It isn’t about a “new” approach, it’s about the samo samo ideology. We’ve seen it and it’s old stuff, and a waste of bandwidth.
I don’t Think I mentioned that as a motivation. And I have done that. Here, it would be different, or it would not last, for example. But there are other reasons I Think it would potentially be positive. That the dialogues would be here with others. And then I raised some other issues also.
I Think that might have been a good thing, hence the thread. I mean if there was no ongoing battle around his feelings of rejection and judgment of the Place and people’s reactions to him because he is him.
My point is that there is no point in un-banning him, as he has never allowed the ban to stop him from posting anyway, which at the very least displays a complete lack of respect for the rules of the forum. Why would you openly invite someone like that back? You can clearly see in his own response that the excuses you used to try to justify this idea in your OP are inaccurate.
The ban does stop him from posting and it means that he is attacked in ways that perhaps mods would not allow, especially with pressure, if he was a member in good standing. It’s not the same thing. That said I Went over and read some of the thread and it seems like he is taking back or never said - who can keep track - things he said here. I responded there briefly to him and I’ll just let whatever happens happen. I mean, it seems like he is saying he is not interested in posting here except in occasional blitzes, hard to even follow. But if that’s the case, you are absolutely right. He can crash in in drag now and then, to ‘show all the hypocrisy’ and then leave. His wishes fit with yours actually. Who am I to stand in the way of a solution that makes everyone happy?
Satyr is an extremely intelligent person who has developed an ideology that is internally consistent, whether you agree with that ideology or not. If Satyr has a cardinal failure, it is that he refuses to accept that other points of view can have any validity. No matter what anyone offers, it is always compared negatively to his POV and dismissed with the sardonic put downs for which he is famous. Being intelligent isn’t the same as being smart. He played his song here for years and it is no different than the endless loop of elevator music. Satyr simply isn’t capable of discussion, only preaching his ideology. Without questions, he becomes a one-trick pony. Understand that I bear him no ill will. In person, he may be one hell of a guy. But in a philosophy forum, he has spent his credability. I have no idea what removing a ban would do for ILP - or for Satyr. Sometimes, history is just history…
It seems rather resolved. He didn’t really want to be here, it seems, according to him in the other forum. He just wants to do what he can do through Quick joinings until banned. Which nicely confirms both the positions of the people who hate him AND his position about the forum.
It’s a ritual, like the Town where they throw a few tons of tomatoes on eachother once a year.
Is it possible just to give the goat access to only rant? It is what he does best. He won’t stop we know this, so is not a controlled burn better than a wildfire?