Yes, but does she talk about the role of sex when you no longer feel like you need it? How about after you’ve tried all the toys and whatnot and now you’re just cool with the simple stuff?
I bet not.
Sex is also about not having sex.
Another [edited] on a vendetta.
True. This thread is about adults molesting underage adolescents and children.
aspacia
The slave comment has to do with doing what the “man” or “the master” says without questioning why he said it.
Whoever came up with the idea that 18 is legal age was some man, and I am some man, so what makes his ideas worthy enough for me to follow?
He has to be a philosopher that can provide me with a compelling reason to follow his rules and provide confidence in me that they aren’t arbitrary. That’s one “man†speaking to another “man†in a meaningful way.
The opposite is the master that tells the slave that it’s “pants-on-the-head day†and so the next thing you see is Jimbo shuffling by with a smile and his Sunday best belted on his melon. Jimbo is living an inauthentic life, in case I didn’t spell it out.
This is relevant because many bright young people that are just starting to see the realities of the world want to know why they have to do certain things and many adults can’t explain it to them, so then the young people simply stop following the rules. That can create problems that could have been prevented had the rules been explained.
A real but silly example: When I was a teenager my dad was speaking very angrily about young guys not taking their hats off while indoors. At first I agreed, and then I said that I can’t find a rationale for taking the hat off. This went back and forth until I thought he’d have a stroke, but ultimately there simply is no good reason why you’re an ignorant person for not taking your hat off in a building.
A good example: The late 60s early 70s was a time that it was thought innovative to have families that ignored or rejected the role that men play in the family. Traditional families and the reason for their existence could not be explained. As I recall, no one that I knew could explain why single mothers were undesirable in any way. Later, it became clear that children suffer from anger, depression, and cynicism as a result of that one parent that is apparently less interested in them than the other. So, it’s now vaguely understood by many that having two unified parents is a good idea.
Had this knowledge been maintained down through time perhaps many dysfunctional families could have been avoided.
So, being able to explain the “whys†of things is very important.
She is 53 and a child advocate. I submit to you that these young people have no idea how this behavior may haunt them when older.
As I, aspacia, aged and realized that the young, especially, me and my friends, made huge errors in judgement and live to regret them regarding sex. Sorry to jump into you question to Adl.
When did I first think to defend pedophiles, that I have already written on in the thread: “I got banned from philosophyforums.com for the third time:”
ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … t=#1740658
[/quote]
Look, sex among adults is fine by me, but not when an adult engages in seducing a child.
If you like men, and or women, fine; you are an adult, but just leave children out of your passions is all I ask.
yes, philosophy always was best practiced as a purely empirical discipline. the abstract proposition or thought experiment has never had any place in philosophy. not that any of the names i mentioned are not known to have desired, married, fancied, conducted romantic friendships w/ or slept w/ children, if not actually fucked them.
anyway my work here is done. few of you seem to have read the article anyway. enjoy south dakota.
Boring…
Peter Kropotkin:Stick to facts"
Anitcyclone: yes, philosophy always was best practiced as a purely empirical discipline. the abstract proposition or thought experiment has never had any place in philosophy. not that any of the names i mentioned are not known to have desired, married, fancied, conducted romantic friendships w/ or slept w/ children, if not actually fucked them.
K: If anybody around here is going to work with you, its me.
You did not offer a good argument. The names you brought up did
not help your argument. Philosophy should be out in the world and
should be functional in that world, but your argument did not do that.
Anti: anyway my work here is done. few of you seem to have read the article anyway. enjoy south dakota."
K: I live just outside San Francisco, down south on the peninsula,
I understand your arguments better then most because of where I
live. I just don’t think it worked very well. You never made an
argument that this type of thing would be in any, way, shape or form,
good for children, I can make hundreds of arguments
that its detrimental to children. Unless you make some argument
that it is good for children to have sex, even with their peers,
and I don’t believe you can, your argument fails. It takes in
only one side, the adults side, it never takes in the children’s
side, where it is detrimental to the mental health of children
and that has been proven over and over again.
Your thesis flounders on that fact, it is unhealthy for children,
to have sex before they are ready and they aren’t usually ready
untill adulthood.
Kropotkin
this may be true in general, but its generality is the flaw that makes the extreme & absolutist legal & moral position that is current an avenue for injustice & harm. i don’t have any doubt about this.
i am not an apologist for child molesting, but i do insist that some balance be maintained between what is known & what is merely assumed or habitually asserted. where i live a 16 yo boy can legally have sex with a 60 yo man. while this may make some people squirm, i think it recognizes that the bare facts in themselves are not sufficient to establish harm or culpability. under the regime being established by the arguments you seem to be supporting, there shld be no room for interpretation: the child is definitively harmed & the adult is definitively a dangerous predator, undeserving of natural rights. i consider this to be totalitarian.
what’s more, nobody has answered in any way the charge that the extreme moralistic & absolutist thinking in relation to childhood sexual experience & pedophilia is in itself a real cause of harm & injustice. i can’t be bothered defending things that are obviously indefensible for ever, simply becos nobody can be bothered addressing the real issues i am raising.
maybe you cld help me out here K.
aspacia,
I think not…
Off topic.
Should an adult be allowed to have sex with an legally underage child. No.
Stick to the topic.
Without regard, respect nor concern.
aspacia
Can you prove that?
I find that difficult to believe.
This may be true.
ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm
However, I disagree with allowing a 16 year old having sex with 60 year old, 50 year old, 40 year old, . . .
Smiles,
aspacia
There’s a cultural philosophical issue to this as well.
Mexican and some Asian cultures for instance, have a peasant/elitist culture without a big middle-class. The word “peasant” is not unlike the word “robot” so there isn’t much of a role expected for them in life. They live, work, and then die. Whatever happens happens. So, it is of little importance what happens to the children.
You’re Juan Carlos Don of your family’s Avacodo plantation, that’s been in your family since the Conquistadors, and you hear that one of your workers got a 14 year old pregant. Quickly, you calculate how many children she can have by the time she’s 35. Wow!
aspacia,
Your doubt isn’t proof that the law is correct in even the majority of cases.
The age of consent DEFINES what is an ‘underage’ child. It couldn’t be more relevant.
Soon enough we won’t even have to mate to survive. If the age of consent in arbitrary then why are you so concerned with preventing sex between people on either side of it.
Funny how it’s always women being abused by men in your mind when you yourself have used extremely threatening behaviour (pointing a loaded gun at someone)…
Again, your judgement is based on an arbitrary measure (the age of consent)
Funny how the perpetrator is always male in your mind - “for example, a step-father, uncle, a priest”…
Need I highlight your sexist bias yet further?
In other words you patronise children and stop them from making decisions for themselves until the age of 18 when you expect them to mysteriously mature overnight…
Right, someone who has been prevented from having any sexual relationships before 18 because that’s bad and inappropriate and emotionally scarring and will turn them into a heroin addict fuckup has learned (how, exactly?) by the age of 18 enough to go out and have sex with anyone they like? Or just people that you think is a fair emotional/sexual match for them?
Right, because all kids who grow up in poverty are messed up, aren’t they? It’s not like society has ever benefited from people overcoming poverty either with or with society’s help, oh no… It’s not like some of the greatest writers in the world grew out of poverty…
I didn’t drag your middle class presumptions into this about how everyone who comes from a family that doesn’t nurture them is ‘messed up’. You did that all by yourself.
It would appear so, in some places. Certainly at 14, though I imagine that it is frowned upon…
And somehow, without being allowed to experiment at all, they are mystically capable of making a sound decision on the day of their 18th anniversary?
I went to one, funnily enough.
‘Some people say that we only become adults when our parents die. I think that we never become adults’ (Michel Houellebecq)
Adulthood is no more rational than childhood. Tell me, when were you happiest?
Why not?
Hardly…
Says the one who drags her sexist, middle class attitudes in as ‘evidence’ for her claims while agreeing that the basis for her claims is arbitrary.
Without regard, respect nor concern.
aspacia
[/quote]
G.
G.
It’s interesting that you should post that, as I just made a post in the “sexuality” thread in the philo section along the same lines.
Male dress sense changed, and the dandy, disappeared around the time of the industrial revolution. Capitalists had to encourage men to wear short hair and simple work clothes so that bits wouldn’t get caught in the machinery. So, a man, instead of being a showcase for himself, became an extension of the machine. He’s a part that has to be properly fitted to avoid breakage.
My dad was what’s called a “breaker boy†in the coal mines when he was a kid. That’s where you straddle conveyor belts with bits of coal on them and try to pick out the different sizes of coal for different usages. So, the kid was a cheap form of sorting machine for the coal company. According to him some kids would get hurt, and certainly they were breathing in a lot of coal dust, which can’t ever be expelled from the lungs.
I’m sure that the rich owner’s kid was nowhere to be found.
Now, humans are monkeys, and I believe that Socrates said that the most dangerous animal is an uneducated man. So, with those ideas said what do you think was/is being formed via child labor?
Human have a tendency to view each other as objects , and children have been and are being used as such all over the world. However, the concept is that when people stop treating each other like machine parts then a more civil and pleasant society is formed.
Herodotus mentioned in his histories that this was a big difference between Africans and Greeks. The Africans viewed humans as just another animal while the Greeks viewed them as having divine elements, thus the treatment of one’s fellow was different.
actually the topic is the article i posted on sexual fascism. have you read it? if you had, you would realise that i am not trying to defend the ‘seduction’ of children by adults or adults ‘having sex’ with children. my point is, i am trying to defend the fragile, beautiful & natural eroticism of adult/child interactions & relationships from senseless damage being inflicted by willfully ignorant & self righteously smug ideologues. incidentally, erotic satisfaction in childhood is -the- precursor to psychic health in adulthood. a baby starved of touch never recovers. if you doubt this, refer to harlow.
there are many harms that flow from sexual fascism…
a south american latino woman immigrates to the u.s. & is arrested for kissing her son’s penis. she stimulates him this way as mothers in her culture have done for generations – then suddenly, becos she is in a culture with attitudes she doesn’t understand, her family is taken from her & she is in jail. this happened recently. the judge threw the case out but the trauma to the woman & her children was real & uneccessary.
an adult male & a young girl are bathing together. they have a close & trusting relationship. the girl is curious about the man’s penis & he allows her to touch it. perhaps he is a little aroused by her attention. in practice this kind of thing occurs often. it can be regarded as a universal of human behaviour. shld it be accepted without comment, gently discouraged within the context of the family or reported to an agency & prosecuted? we can assume that, shld this enactment be presented in court w/ a certain emphasis, this man’s life is destroyed. if he is somebody the little girl loves, i can only guess at the damage to her psyche.
a self identified pedophile is attracted to prepubescent girls. he goes out of his way to meet them, successfully establishes mutually satisfying & beneficial friendships with them & devotes hours of his time to their care & education? the pedophile avoids all overt expressions of his sexual interest, behaving like what used to be called a ‘gentleman’. it is much better for everybody if he can be open about his sexual orientation, but this is complicated since the popular understanding of a ‘pedophile’ is evil incarnate, a mentally ill sexual sadist w/ neither scruples nor impulse control. should his pedophilia come to light, his child friends are taught an unpleasant lesson in ‘tolerance’.
we need to think about these scenarios, not just repeat the same tired platitudes like a chapel full of nuns saying a novena. at least a novena is beautiful. the currently ascendant, anxious, hostile view of sexuality is just plain ugly.
=================
homework: read women & pornography by feminist philosopher beatrice faust. familiarize yrself w/ the concept of ‘visceral clutch’.
these are interesting ideas Adlerian. suffice it to say that it is the care & protection of what is human that motivates my engagement w/ this topic. its interesting to contrast yr description of workers as interchangeable machines with aspacia’s description of the production of such machines…
i think that is my point really. intelligent, engaged, empathetic, thoughtful, socially adept 12yo’s are not the usual product of industrial schooling. such 12yo’s do exist, but they are either outside the school system or maintain a cryptic camoflage while w/in it. part of the function of industrial schooling is destruction of independent thought & autonomous action. it is no surprise that sexual repression is a key element of that pedagoguey.
patronizing generalizations about the limits of a child’s understanding, agency or autonomy are as objectifying as any sexual thought. certainly experience is a function of age, but it is also a function of …well, experience.