Should Substances Be Controlled?

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

Should the government of a country have the right to place restrictions on what their citizens put into their bodies?

in my opinion no, but there are a lot of reasons why governments have to (i’ll leave the up to the rest of you to discuss).

illegal sales of substances are what make up so much of the crime percentage in America, and i’m sure in other countries as well.

if these substances were not illegal then they could be controlled safely, and if no substances were ever illegal then we would never have had ‘drug dealers’ which are the primary reason that certain drugs are ‘gateway drugs’

take this analogy, you put a playground next to a bar (or a casino, or a strip club), you expect kids to come and play on the playground, percentages show that most kids will end up playing on this playground at some point. why would you put the ‘playground’ next to the ‘bar’. that is where drug law becomes harmful.

you know that kids will (for example) probably end up smoking marijuana, and if they ever buy marijuana then they will have to go through a ‘drug dealer’ and this drug dealer not only introduces them to a ‘counter culture’ that exist behind the scenes in every town, but he also introduces them to the other drugs that he sells, and you are more likely to hear about these drugs and decide to use them. you get faulty information from people who are just trying to rip you off and end up doing something really stupid.

if the drug you were buying was in a pharmacy then you would know what all the specific dangers would be, people would know because there would be much more testing done on these legal drugs, doses could be controlles for substances that could be harmful (fatal) in large doses.
you could still hurt yourself by using to much of the drug or by taking drugs that you have been told are going to harm you (cigarettes for example), but the choice would be yours to make.

when you go to Amsterdam, you will find that most of the people there, look down upon stupid Americans who come over and take a lot of drugs because they grew up in this culture and they know what drugs are and how to deal with them.

its like when a kid goes off to college and hes about to get drunk for the first time, he doesnt know his limit he doesnt know whats going to happen but hes excited. and he drinks to much and gets alcohol poisoning and dies. Kids from great britian (as opposed to america) have more experience with drinking and while their choices might not always be good, they know the consequences and they know what they are dealing with.

i might have gotten a bit to into this but back to the main topic and considering my post…should substances be controlled?

2

I’m really in two minds about this one, I find it a really confusing mess. I know successful, responsible and happy people who indulge in substances they could be arrested for and that they might lose their jobs over- it seems neither fair nor reasonable. Recently, a high ranking policeman said something to the along the lines of that Notting Hill organic produce consumers were hypocritical in their use of cocaine as they didn’t take into account the damage their drug consumption was doing on third world countries. (I can’t remember exactly what was said but the opinion he expressed was that concern for nature and such orientated ethics was incompatible with drug use.) I didn’t agree with this as I felt it was people such as the policeman who were turning a readily available and centuries used product into an illegal one, I’d also previously heard the idea that if cigarettes went up to £50 a box, we’d see middle class smokers breaking into houses too. I’m not convinced about the last idea either but it did make me think a bit and that’s why I’ve included it here.

Staying in London for 6 years and getting a bit older has changed some of the ways I used to feel regarding drugs though, I’m not convinced that we should just stand by and watch people screw their lives up. I think that we as a society need to care a little bit about each other and if we know for sure that something like heroin is going to cost lives, perhaps we are morally obliged to do something?

Your question was ‘should the government have the right’ though, in a democracy, the government is elected and the idea is that we decide- so in effect we’ve decided to give the government the right. I do understand that certain governments have and do pressurise other government into following their lead on drug policy, but perhaps we’ve then given our government the right to decline in following this lead? Broadly speaking, I feel the drug policy in the UK is reflective of the general wishes of the public and that there is a reasonable debate going on. I’m still not convinced someone should be arrested for smoking a joint though.

3

to a point someone has to get help for addicts before they hurt themselves or someone else. drunk driving is an example of what happens when people legalize a drug. if heroin was legal but you couldnt drive after you shot up im sure it would happen anyway.

i dont know though. i know a lot of people that have been really fucked up from drugs. a lot of it is social and legal side effects at first. most of the people wouldnt be as detatched or outcasted if it werent for the law or people pressuring them to quit but later in the life of an abuser it has a lot of serious effects and ive seen them happen. it changes people and people do get really stupid and obsessive about drugs.

it ruins lives now in two ways but i think that people should definately be informed on the risks and possibly have rules enforced about them. i mean… like they need to hang out with a drug fiend for a week before they do the drug so they know what happens.

4

Yeah, it’s like making types of poisons and bombs illegal. It’s more practical to be enforced than not.

5

thats the best way ive heard it put.

6

right i understand the practical point of view, and that is almost impossible to expect a government to allow very harmful substances to be legal.

however a government holds such great power, being practical is neccessary at points but when it comes to individual rights…that should be something the individual has control over.

the government (well im talking about america in this case) should not barter individual rights for the deal that they have with the paper companies…which is basically what happened with marijuana (because hemp was such a great competitor in that market), the reefer madness story is basically the reason that was given to the general public, which is why you find that the research on marijuana done by the government is unusually skewed (when compared to other independent research projects).

other illegal drug trade also does its part boosting the economy, as prices for these illicit drugs are high, and the market is great, plus drug money and drugs can be siezed by the government, so much money that goes straight to the government where it can be used unaccounted for…as long as its kept under wraps that such a thing could possibly be [supported].
drug wars…veils that shroud the truth behind drug policy.

individual rights are indeed suffering as a result of drug policy, that is the point of my initial arguement. although it is believed by some that the government should protect its people by protecting them from themselves , i do not believe this. i believe that such treatment leads to, down the road…in the future…to much greater methods of individual control.
such things should be abolished from government.
the people must learn how to control themselves, how to be free and be safe as well. the government should not forcibly control people, training them like dogs to do as they are told.

the individual should not be afraid of its government, the government should be afraid of its people (V for Vendetta quote).

7

We have the society that we have because we are human, and there are certain great things about mankind that allow us to build up great institutions and creative works. If we were like dogs, we couldn’t have this kind of society, nowhere close. We have staked everything we’ve build on our intellectual prowess- mutual understandings of other people’s ability to control themselves, to care for themselves, and otherwise live like human beings.
There are plenty of drugs, that when taken too much or too often, make people like dogs (at least, in ways important to what I’m saying above). People in this state cannot be safely treated like human beings, for their own good, for the good of society, and so on. They can be well cared for, but they are basically dogs.
It’s safer, probably cheaper in the long run, and surely much much more humane to control the substances so that their are fewer dogs, rather than give people the “freedom” to turn themselves into dogs- when in reality they are surrendering their very humanity so that we can care for (and hence control) them for the rest of their lives.
It’s like Bob Barker says- Remember to get your pets spayed or neutered. What was I talking about about again?

8

i dont think the government is protecting me from myself when it comes to drug wars. my point of view is that drugs are dangerous. i didnt need the government to tell me that because despite its best attempts i had and still have access to drugs. i learned it from watching people use them. what i feel a war against drugs is protecting me from is other peoples abuse of them. i dont think the drunk driving laws are protecting people from themselves. drunk driving laws are protecting the public. theyre doing a god damn horrible job at it but theyre doing it none the less.

people arent afraid of a casual drug user just like they arent afraid of a casual drinker. theyre afraid of alcoholics and addicts. alcohol should be illegal but people dont care about each other so it never will be. next pot will be legal. but whatever.

9

do you really think you need to be protected from ‘drug users’, the only reason that you are afriad of drug users and feel you must be protected is because these drug users are considered criminals, and those who are considered criminals often become criminals. and thus crime is associated with drug use because the drug use that is illegal.

if the drugs were not illegal then there would be nothing to worry about…

you are allowed to drink, but you are not allowed to drive…that makes sense, because you could injure someone else or damage property, but you can’t say that most drug use causes this…but yet these are still illegal, why are they illegal exactly? health risks? or safety risks?

10

I’m of two minds on this issue.

It’s not that Drugs are bad, per se, but they certainly aren’t going to increase productivity. I can still function pretty well even when I am deep in my cups (or baked off my ass); however, I can’t really function when I am tripping on shrooms. I function better when I am pumped full of stimulants, but that only works for so long before it falls apart horribly.

So, it’s about promoting balance. I know a lot of people that have gotten out of drugs (myself included) because they simply didn’t like the company they keep. I would most certainly be a meth addict right now if it weren’t for the worthless people you have to interact with to get your hands on that drug. Same thing with the psychadelics. They are, frankly, more work than they are worth.

So, they are there if you really want them and fairly easily attainable. Yet, at the same time, there is enough work invovled in getting them that you really have to try. I think it helps keep people casual about it. Getting too focused on any substance will destroy your life.

Would massive legalization create a better balance? I don’t know. When people talk about the moderation of European drinking, they usually aren’t looking at the full picture. Does an 18 year old German drink better than an 18 year old American? Certainly! But what about comparing 15 year old Germans to 18 year old Americans, which are cultural equivalents in terms of drinking.

You get the same tom-foolery. No suicidal frat binges, but those are outliers anyway. Now, compare an 18 year old German with a 21 year old American. In my experience, they drink about the same. Still get shitty, but in a much more controlled way because they know their limits.

So, when do we want people to learn these limits?

11

Yeah, that’s a good point X.

It’s readily apparent in university, especially first year students. Some of these individuals come into this area of freedom, of parental and otherwise socially developed (if they move away). If these people have never touched a drug in their life and then decide to start experimenting they will likely experience a great deal of embarassment and other such ridiculous things because they don’t have the introspective abilities to deal with themselves while impaired.

I think the lacking thought here is that of self control or ignorance. You must experiment with drugs very carefully and slowly otherwise mental baggage can accumulate, things actually get distorted, lives are ruined etc. This is especially true with the hallucinagens which, like X pointed out… are so bloody hard to get a hold of. Actually, the newest episode of family guy delt with this very well… that is, when Peter and Loise get high and think they are singing so much better than they actually are.

Drugs are all about maintaining the balance and separting out the bullshit. Every hit’s effect will have its consequential negatives.If you stay up for a week on coke, you are going to burn out HARRRRD. You can prolong it, but you cannot avoid it unless you die. Likewise if you stay up for a week on coke you’re not going to notice all the bullshit you’re talking and how far you actually are from the collective societal mindset.

12

Hello F(r)iends,

No, substances shouldn’t be controlled.
After I’m done beating to death the cocksucker who killed my daughter I will politely state that justice shouldn’t be controlled either.

-Thirst4Equality

13

im not afraid of the crime associated with drug use. crime doesnt bother me. ive been around drug and alcohol abusers since i was like 9. what bothers me is the addiction and the way people act when theyre on the drugs.

i know not all drug users are violent and that not all alcoholics are going to drive and not everyone that uses the stuff is an addict. what im saying is it increases the chances of having people do something stupid and it gives them something else to get easily hooked on. its not like getting hooked on a message board where the worst that can happen is you learn something. people die thats why its scary. i dont think people realize the danger and its probably because of the fact that it takes so long to matter. certain drugs are less dangerous thats why we legalized them… it seems stupid when people die but hey their chances of survival were better than if they were shooting up… its just simple logic that you dont play with fire though.

i personally dont care if people do drugs i just dont want to be exposed to it and i dont want to watch people ruin their lives over some temporary euphoria. its like cigarettes… no matter how many laws there are prohibiting smoking im still going to have assholes blowing their shit in my face. i dont want to deal with it.

plus any arguement you use for drugs where the government is restricting rights could be used in any other arguement. people want drug laws because they feel safer. not from crime. we know if nothing was illegal there would be no crime. it makes us feel safer from pain.

14

in a controlled safe environment.

the only thing is… its never safe and you never know your limits. people learn to rock climb in a safe environment but when they go rock climbing for real they still all die. every single one of them :frowning:. drugs are bad but that analogy was awesome.

i drink fine (after a lot of mistakes) and i know my limits but i even if i get drunk im still a fucking moron. im not going to drive or try hitting on girls but im definately still talking. and talking while drunk is always bad.

15

I dunno. I learned my limits fine. And I find with hallucinogens that they are self-limiting. Sure, there were a few space-cadets who had legitimately fried their brains . . . but by a ‘few’ I really mean ‘one’.

I knew some people that didn’t know themselves well enough to do psychadelics and got into trouble that way, but they definately learned something about themselves in the process (I think).

It’s the stimulants and the opiates that get people into trouble. I knew a few (n=3) people that got themselves into some deep doodoo there. Heck, I was almost one of them.

Those are the drugs that are dangerous. The ones with addictive potential. Oh, and phenobarbital. Fucking 72 hour half life.

16

these smokers have the right to smoke regardless of how you feel about it.

drug users should have the right to use drugs regardless how you feel about it.

if they want to fuck up their lives with drugs they have every right to.

but i doubt you’d see as many people ‘fuckin up their lives’ with drugs if these drugs were legal.

their lives get fucked cause they get involved in drug dealing sometimes, and they get busted once or twice.
and also because the drugs they buy cost so much money cause the drugs are illegal…
all those really hardcore drugs…crack, methamphetamine, herion…these drugs would not exist if their derivatives were not made illegal in the first place…if there was not an illegal drug market these drugs would not have been invented.

17

well with the laws controlling our people now…imagine what i controlled, safe environment will be in 20 years…

i can imagine that our ‘terrorism control’ will have been taken to new and more ‘efficient’ levels, where the government can not only see everything you do, but they can also have you nabbed immediately for any suspicious behavior…
and drug laws…man oh man, i can only imagine how much harsher drug laws will become…

by the way there a famous case in New York in the 70’s where there was a man arrested for holding a joint in public, and he was put in jail for 20 years…well that man died in jail…how do you feel about that?

18

and they have the right to invade my personal space with obnoxious smoke. its really fucking annoying.

then so should murderers have the right to murder if other people who are effected by it have opinions that dont matter.

yea i agree.

you have absolutely no reason to believe that except for wishful thinking though. drugs were once legal you know. it doesnt always work out well.

so when people overdose and die its because they were out dealing drugs?

when peoples brain gets so numb that they cant hold a conversation its because its illegal?

when people cant motivate themselves to live in a world without drugs its the law thats keeping them down?

im assuming you use drugs. i cant put it to you any other way besides saying that youre seeing what you want to see. granted most of those are examples of people fucking up their own lives but you cant disapear without anyone noticing. you cant take someone out of your life without being just a tad bit pissed off when you realize its their drug addiction that took them from you. it doesnt take that long for it all to catch up to you. ive only been around drug addicts for like 11 years and i dont work with them theyre just friends and family but ive already seen most of them ruin their lives.

why?

19

probably not much different than it is now. although this country (the u.s.) has been getting incredibly angsty lately.

plus my point was that if people were to experiment with drugs i would want the it to be in a safe environment so they dont o.d. and so they dont do something stupid. not… a safe environmnet is one without drugs.

well bush will most likely be out of office in 20 years being that if hes not hell probably be shot. so in that case i cant see a law like or more restrictive than the patriot act being passed without a conservative leader and without another serious terror attack. so i doubt that. drug laws might get more restrictive who knows. but if youre worried about people watching you through the walls of your house or from space that technology is already here. if technology scares you the future probably isnt a safe place for you.

20 years is a lot and thats really stupid but in the 70’s we were sicking attack dogs on protestors beating black people left and right and shooting little asians for no reason. makes you feel like your in the present. ya know… its only 30 years but atleast we made headway subduing drug restrictions which is obviously this countries most important issue.

20

i dont smoke by the way, now i would agree with the law that it is illegal for smokers to smoke in a restaurant, because the smoke in the air can lead to second hand smoke…

and on that note…

its not a matter of how you feel about getting murdered, its a matter of getting murdered. obviously if you murder someone your gonna hurt a lot more then their feelings. just in the way second hand smoke doesnt just piss you off, it can actually be very harmful to your health.

there is more of a mischievious attraction to something that is illegal, if certain drugs were legal there would not be as much as an attraction to misuse them.

with alcohol which is legal, there was long period in your teenage life (if you come from America, where drinking age is 21) where it was illegal for you to drink alcohol. thus when you got a hold of the ‘illegal alcohol’, it seemed obvious to you that the only way to use it would be to misuse it, these are the people who like to get really drunk. because their intial reaction to the ‘thing’ is that it is something mischievious and as they can first remember it ‘off limits’.

that is why other drugs make kids feel ‘cool’, its the mischievious factor that makes them go crazy, they go off on this fabricated ‘cool image’ and fuck up thier lives with drugs.

anything that has a restriction on it will be misused, if you cant get your hands on it when you finally do you feel ‘special’ and you go crazy with whatever it is.
that is the crux of my arguement here and I think that if you have read this through you will begin to understand what i am saying.

no its because people are stupid…they get into drugs usually because they are attracted by the ‘counter-culture’ and the counter-culture thrives on drugs because drugs are considered to counter society, because they are illegal.
once again people are stupid…they want to fit in, their friend does hardcore drugs (he does them because he/she thinks it cool to do illegal drugs, and he/she thinks that he is cool) and gets them to smoke…crack, for instance.
they smoke the crack, get high and equate the getting high to everything forementioned…counter-culture, coolness, popularity (well among these people), ect…and the drug is physcially addictive, they continue using it…
confused stupid people, they wouldnt get their hands on this in the first place or care about it if it wasnt for the counter-culture…

you know there is a legal hallucinogen? its called salvia. have you heard of it?
nope, you haven’t because its not illegal. no-one cares about legal drugs…its the illegal ones that are fun!!! lets try those…lets be cool and do the illegal drugs.

its all physcological, its because most people don’t even realize when they are under the spell of society and their friends, the drugs are a crutch, a social crutch. and they use this crutch in all aspects of their life.
so from now on, once they realize that they suck at life and have been hiding behind the drugs their entire life, they simply continue to use the drugs to feel ‘better’, and they live in denial…

fuckin stupid people, silly humans…so you have to save yourself from yourself eh? weakness, foolishness, you are supporting idiocy!!!

remove the god damn attraction from these drugs
the attraction of these drugs is that they are illegal, that is how people get into them in the first place.

if drugs were ALWAYS legal then you wouldnt even know what crack was or meth or herion, who the hell would ever want to try that?
where would they get the idea that doing these drugs was cool?
where would they decide that drugs were counter-culture?
they wouldn’t, drugs would be much more obscure, and they probably wouldnt sell them at the fucking pharmacy. its just that they would be unregulated, unadvertised.

im assuming you’re an uptight prick.
for the record the only drugs i use…and plan on using: alcohol, marijuana, tobacco.

i know what the attraction is to these other drugs…kids think its cool because its illegal, the more mischievious something is, the cooler it is. the power that ‘cool’ has over society is amazing.

because the reason these drugs were invented, was to make money.
because they were illegal they could create something that could be sold for high prices and was not very costly to make.
‘criminals’ experienced with illegal stuff cooked it up.

respectable people involved with legal endevours dont cook up fuckin crack, or meth or heroin.