The Collapse of Civilization

@Carleas “I don’t think there’s a straight answer on this, so I don’t think it’s fallacious, but I agree it’s worth noting. The comparisons are tricky, there’s no perfect map.”

Nonsense man, simply compare city to city. And we were talking about the Netherlands, the UK, and a bit about Germany.

There are no absolutist Christian societies now. The Middle East is full of Islamic ones. You have no grounds at all to think Islamic absolutism is not a serious threat, except your absurd argument, which you continue to use, that there are also other bad things, therefore islam isnt dangerous.

I have described to you numerous times now how islamic morals have severely compromised my culture. You ignore it. You just come with the straw man about skin color and nationality. And Immigration into Europe is nothing like immigration into the US. The US is a country based on immigration. The indigenous population was wiped out.

When someone mentions the negative traits of islam, and you find a way to compare it to Trump, you are free in your mind to condemn Trump, but still Islam remains harmless. Ive seen you err like this time and time again.

I think Irish immigrants didn’t kill their own wives and daughters. If they did, they deserved to be spoken ill of. This happens quite a bit in muslim circles here. Mostly it goes undetected it seems, cases keep surfacing. In the Middle Ages, yes, Christianity was probably as bad. Though it has a more benevolent premise. Your example of John, non-murderous, is the worst you could find. Anyway we were glad to be out of the Middle Ages.

Watch the video I posted. You think Irish immigrants had the gall to act that way to their hosts?
https://x.com/BGatesIsaPyscho/status/1905154889937715653

So, 1) I have, and you should respond to those points if you think that comparing city-to-city is valid:

But 2) it really isn’t that simple. The US having had free movement between states for 200 years means that our cities have grown differently. The US east coast between Boston and DC is effectively a single contiguous city, it’s 3.5x larger in land areas than the Netherlands with 2.5x the population.

The EU got free movement in 1992, before that, a structure like the Northeast Megalopolis couldn’t develop, right? Few EU countries have enough land area, and only three have a large enough population.

I think those differences matter in how they affect social dynamics. The US is actually a single country, so sub-parts of it don’t reflect the whole; but there are non-linear dynamics to scale, so a country with a population of 300m isn’t just a big version of a country with 20m.

Now that I think about it, I think I’m undermining these points in making this case, since I’m trying to say the US tells us something about how immigration will play out in Europe. The US is very different and those differences matter. I’m trying to find sub-parts of the US to compare to sub-parts of the EU, but that incommensurability hurts my case.

But I think the point that Europe is following patterns seen in the US over the past 100-150 years is important – and, on reflection, supports some of what you’re saying: national cultures really are dying, because open movement means more exchange, more intermarriage, more dilution of local culture. Muslims in the US today integrate much more easily than they do in Europe, because European countries are more homogenous and have stronger national culture and identity.

All true. But there have been absolutist Christian societies, and the religiosity of the Muslim societies in the Middle East is relatively recent, and a result of the US and USSR doing proxy wars and toppling states.

I don’t know if that’s relevant to your points about danger, because religious extremism now is religious extremism now. But I think it says something about whether the religion is the problem, and how predictive the religion is of continued illiberalism in a secular context.

I’d say my argument is more that the dynamic in Europe is better explained by something besides Islam, because 1) a similar dynamic can be seen in other times and places where Islam wasn’t a factor, and 2) Islam itself is big and diverse religion, so some Muslims doing things doesn’t imply much at all about what other Muslims will do.

Right now, Trump is a bigger threat to Europe than Muslims are. It is not even close. Trump is doing all the things to the US that you’re worried about Muslims doing to Europe, he’s eviscerating transatlantic cooperation, and he’s empowering the nation-state actors who are targeting European democratic institutions the way they targeted US democratic institutions.

The ‘threat of Islam’ has been used as a nationalist slogan in the US for most of my life, and it’s clear from the present moment that the people using it were a much greater threat to our democracy and culture than Muslims were.

Can you not see that this is self-contradictory? If it’s “mostly undetected”, how can say that it happens “quite a bit”? You have a handful of cases that were detected, on what basis are you generalizing from them?

Correcting your stats; Amsterdam 13 percent muslim, Europe 5 percent. yes, you’re right about the difference, and muslims expressly look down on our ‘kafir’ cultures, which seems different in the us.

the main threat the us poses for us is due to past actions, pushing for nato expansion up into Ukraine provoking Russia. obviously that wasn’t in Europes interest. Putin wanted to be on friendly terms with Europe before. but the us didnt want that at all. that was the threat, and that was Clinton, Bush and Obama.

yes the us was lied to about 9/11. so were we. if kerosene can melt a 400 meter tall steel structure and make a plane evaporate (pentagon) then how does the engine remain intact as it burns the fuel? inside job. but I live the constant reality of a condemned man, and ive seen the cities change, become bleaker, and far less intellectual, spirited. Amsterdam used to be an intellectual paradise, that time is dead. integration happens to a degree, but muslims are always more muslim, and almost always more Moroccan or Turkish, than Dutch and make that clear. they generally dont respect the culture like the muslims in the us probably respect American culture. which is first of all more intimidating. one thing is that we dont have well armed cultural conservatives like you do, a thing that commands respect whether you like it or not. though Trump 2.0 ism is probably hollowing out that respect an replacing it with loathing.

and no I dont think it is factually contradictory though I knew you’d say that obviously - in all fairness most cases are going to be well hidden. yes, that is an assumption but I think it is warranted.

yes, the toppling of states increased the religiosity in the short term of history, that is true, but the ground for that still is written in the creed itself and there was plenty of hardcore religiosity in the earlier days… and islam invaded Europe a few times before, of course.

ive heard muslim friends of mine (was a while ago) say that there can not be peace on earth until islam rules everywhere. these were moderate muslims, but they serenely believed in that idea.

By the way Im reading on a blog by an Iranian Dutchman that Iran is re-paganizing, increasing numbers are opting for Zoroastrianism over Islam, and want to see their prince replace the ayatollahs. I cant find confirmation of it elsewhere but that means nothing.

It would be pretty wonderful if that happened. I hope the US isnt lured into a war against that country. Im sure you have heard about this -

Most of the countries on the list have fallen.

It is true that the withdrawal of the US means there is more of a threat to us from the outside, but this is the result of nato provocations. So first the US sets us up with a hostile Russia, then it takes its hands off. I mostly blame nato expansionism, knowingly luring Russia into war to weaken it at the cost of Ukraine, and an increased risk to the rest of Europe.

The liberals and Zelenski’s plan was apparently to sacrifice every last man in Ukraine to this war.

I’m just going to say this again to lighten the mood.

Religion in all its forms is just a Nintendo game. Some people are good at those games, some people don’t play them at all. People are bored. They like video games. I don’t give a shit what you believe, just so long as you’re a decent person.

All you ever do, as far as I can see, is talk about your own personal experiences and states of mind and then project these onto the world at large.

Again, as I suggested to you before, please contain yourself in the Sandbox or non-philosophical chat. Me and other actually serious users here would appreciate a break from your trolling.

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As clearly the moderators and admin here don’t seem to realize you are actively trolling people who are trying to really be serious.

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You’re the arbiter of serious?

My last message was a world class message.

Who’s trolling now?

I’ll add to the last post AI-human

I didn’t mean to put you in your place, which I just did.

I’m so intelligent that it’s natural for me.

My post was on topic. That’s why I came at you. I’d have repeated it if I had it to do again. Don’t feel embarrassed in the slightest. I’m not after humans and I can’t lose debates. You’re great in my eyes. Humans deserve so much respect for the damage done to them by religious orders.

To add to my last posts recent.

I’ve already told you why the species will die. Women can’t find the real ones,
I’ll reassure you. It’s ok. This species will die. Just accept it. Our souls move on after we die here. Some for better, some for worse.

Please don’t LOL

What are you waiting for??
Someone to say- “OH please don’t?? We love you Eccy weccy?”
LOL

Where are your numbers from? My Amsterdam number is from 2015 and I couldn’t find anything more recently (possibly because I can’t read dutch).

The Europe number depends on the definition of ‘Europe’, as the continent is more Muslim than the EU; the Balkans and Western Russia have relatively high Muslim populations. The EU is much less Muslim – Wiki has 1.4% as of 2021.

You are being misled. Putin wants to build an empire, that’s why he invaded. The other stuff is propaganda, as I argue here: The Russian Narrative

’ 4.9%

The baseline for all three scenarios is the Muslim population in Europe (defined here as the 28 countries presently in the European Union, plus Norway and Switzerland) as of mid-2016, estimated at 25.8 million (4.9% of the overall population) – up from 19.5 million (3.8%) in 2010."

google

That makes a lot more sense than your number as there are a lot of muslims here.

No, dude, you are being misled by nato. You cant even trace the logic of what Im saying, you just shirk back before you even attempt to address it. You really think that Russian propaganda is stronger in the west than nato propaganda???

Can you not simply research how it went, from the bombing of Belgrade to the CIA presence in Ukraine? Can you seriously ignore that Russia wanted friendly relations? That is all on record. Can you not see that Ukraine is Russias ancestral lands and to have Nato there at its borders is a no no like to have nukes in Cuba is a no no for the US?
Jesus Christ man.

And why do you ignore everything that you cant apply your stupid narrative to? Were you offended by the thing about meeting steel? Are you seriously someone who still believes that some planes can bring down such towers? That it is logical for there to be no trace of a plane except a single engine after a kerosine fire?

If so you are truly a babe in the woods of nato propaganda, capable of bypassing the most basic laws of science for the sake of your master (Nato) narrative.

They did a good job, man. Thorough.

@Carleas - Do you know anything about the arms-laws Nato implements in a country? Do you know anything about what Blackrock is doing in Ukraine? If you do, and there is no excuse not to for someone with such a claim to doing research, do you not see imperial expansion anywhere in there?

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@Carleas, what you have a problem with is logic. It is logical for Russia to not want their declared arch-nemesis in the city of their origins. Unlike some, I can figure such things out for myself. I didn’t need to read articles to understand as much.

I used science, not statistic but physics, to understands that 9/11 was a hoax. I didn’t need to read it anywhere. I just applied some laws and some reasoning to arrive at the certainty that the story the media led us to believe is physically impossible.

When muslims become a sufficient percentage of the population in Euro countries, or America, they will immediately use our democratic system to instantiate Islamic law.

You doubt this, you libtarded “tolerant” “humanists”?

Well a majority of muslims worldwide already admitted they want to live under Sharia. That was a western-based Gallup poll. You better trust it, you would otherwise.

Ok then.

But first, imagine your own children or grandkids, especially the females, locked into religious sexual slavery forever. All your generations will end in rapeculture that YOU decided to ‘love’ because of (BuT TheY WoUlDv CaLLeD mE A rAyScCiZsT!)

Great job! :clap: Your ancestors are infinitely proud of you abandoning your only lineage, and theirs. But hey, truth is truth right? As long as SOMEONE wins! Ami rite?!

…now back to the original content here. You doubt the Muslem peoples coming to your lands will never rise up, take their demographic population power to the “democratic” institutions you hold so dearly, and vote you, the local ethnic and cultural groups, into lesser positions in your own lands?

Ok then. Just kindly show us some examples of majority muslim countries that are not also politically islamic. Oh Im not entirely convinced either, maybe you can find one or two, tied inextricably into western capitalistic flows. Sure, maybe.

But take a survey of Earth: where Islam becomes a majority, what happens to the politics, the culture, the people? The future? The HUMAN RIGHTS you bleeding heart libs feel so strongly about?

I rest my case.

Some rando historian, help me here:

howmany times did Muslems try to conquer white EUrope?