Listening to Sir Nicholas Pearson talk about Jungian psychology and the archetypal realm, he mentions Carl Gustav Jung’s concept of the collective unconscious with an archetypal layer where universal symbols, myths and patterns manifest. But he also linked the active imaginative process, which Jung describes as a method of access and dialogue with these archetypes, to the imaginative perception in the 'alam al-khayal.
The Eastern Islamic concept of the imaginal realm, which explains how supersensory realities present themselves to imaginative perception, has also enriched the imagination of film philosophy. The imaginal realm, in Arabic 'alam al-mithal, world of images, or 'alam al-khayal, imaginative world, is part of a triadic ontology of sensible, imaginative and intelligible realms.
The concept of the imaginal realm in Islamic thought, particularly in the works of thinkers such as Ibn Arabi and Suhrawardi, finds echoes in various philosophical, mystical and cultural traditions worldwide. While the specific triadic ontology of the sensible, imaginal and intelligible realms is distinctive to Islamic metaphysics, parallel ideas can be found in other systems of thought. There are several equivalents or parallels:
Neoplatonism and the "World of Forms
In Neoplatonism, especially in the works of Plotinus, there is a tripartite division of reality:
The sensible world (physical, material reality),
The intelligible world (eternal, abstract forms or archetypes),
And an intermediate realm that allows the soul to ascend through contemplation and imagination.
This intermediate realm is similar to the imaginal realm, as it is here that metaphysical truths are perceived in symbolic or archetypal forms.
Indian Vedanta and Loka (Worlds)
In Hindu Vedanta, reality is often divided into
Bhurloka (physical realm),
Antariksha-loka (intermediate or astral realm),
Swargaloka (heavenly or celestial realms, related to the intelligible).
The intermediate realm (Antariksha) is comparable to the imaginal realm as it is accessible through meditation and represents symbolic or visionary experiences.
Tibetan Buddhism and the Bardo
In Tibetan Buddhist cosmology, the Bardo is a transitional or intermediate state between death and rebirth. It is a luminous space where experiences are often shaped by the mind’s imagination and karmic imprints. This reflects the creative and transformative power of the imaginal.
Christian Mysticism and the Anagogic Sense
Christian mystics such as Meister Eckhart or St John of the Cross speak of spiritual visions and the “anagogical” sense of Scripture, where deeper, symbolic meanings are revealed. These mystical visions often unfold in an intermediate symbolic realm, akin to the 'alam al-mithal.
Indigenous and shamanic cosmologies
Many indigenous traditions have a spirit world accessible through altered states of consciousness, such as those induced by shamanic journeys. These non-ordinary realities are similar to the imaginal realm in that they are supersensory, but can be perceived through imagination and vision.
Western Esotericism and the Astral Plane
In Western esoteric traditions, such as Theosophy or Hermeticism, the astral plane is an intermediate realm filled with archetypes, symbols and images. This realm acts as a bridge between the material and spiritual worlds and is accessed through imaginative and meditative practices.
The Islamic imaginal realm enriches these concepts with its unique ontological structure and spiritual depth, emphasising their ontological reality rather than dismissing them as mere ‘fantasy’. By linking imagination to metaphysics, it offers a profound way of thinking about symbolism in art, philosophy and film, suggesting that images and narratives can mediate between different levels of reality.
Why do you think Christian thinking hasn’t picked up on this, except in Christian Mysticism?
The image the imago, the magi - the mystic tha magic, are all rooted in the same trunk as it were and they branch out into different aspects 9f a metaphysical - ontological anomalies, and compress into a kind of magnetic form that has spiritual features, they are kind of like the philosophers’ stone, consisting with a crystalline emanation of energy.
The formation of magic derives from aboriginal cultish social binding, characteristic of the earliest human social organization, that presumes an east-west spilt, basically divided, fragmented due to meteorological axis, the northern, colder climates developing more industrious human beings, due to a more intricate, climate specific need to build and utilizes tools and habitat which can withstand more challenging environments, the differing and similar organizations, somehow resonate very similar beliefs, such as noted above, and that resonance gives effects to varied utilizations to mathematics, calculus, and magnetic phenomenon, especially in the way magnetic personalities develop harmony, both in music and in the way people sympathize with each other, and often, how the come upon similar discoveries, though not knowing where or who their inventions are shared by others.
This magic is usually associated with progressive elevation , as in physical climbing to higher Plato’s, while elevating iaa in progressing in and furthering their knowledge cognitively and through developing a third eye as it were, a higher knowledge that early on they called the soul, this soul had it’s earliest Occitannce in the Hindu Buddhist beginning, and again resonance through chant brought about physiological changes contributing to the evolution of the spirit in mankind.
Those mystic ideas come down occasionally, but after a long time, they are repressed back into what we now call the collective unconscious, and burst forward again and again, the film, that is a simulated movemen of still frames, is the last simulation, before artificial intelligence evolves from it, by configuring signs as codes, to organize patterns that can begin to cognate visual patterns into storages that are clouds, containing unseen bits of information.
These clouds are stored, in inverse proportion to the rate of physiological brain synapse disassociations, as tech , the branches of the tree of knowledge diverge from the main trunk, to an extent where the Ideas associated with them break off and develop disfuntiinally.
The mystic becomes a role forgotten as well, his role becomes tenuous, and what increasingly is relied upon is trough the eye, and it may be a stretch that at least in the leading language of the west, the Anglo Saxinthe eye is tantamount to identifiable personality types. Archetypes are more suggestive of relations away from the sense of seeing, they are mythical artifacts, deeper and less accessible to modern utilization for practical purposes, of setting up more objective criteria to firm hypothesis.
Christian mystics have ceased to be a credible role as well, and archaic rebound do does occur, but nehilized more totally then in the East, , as can be understood by the two fold division of particularly German philosophy, at the point when Nietzche broke with Schopenhauer, where Nietzche stayed within the western tradition of sustaining myth within national boundaries, while Schopenhauer looked east toward the multinationals if the spread of the magic evolving all through most of Asia.
Your answer is overly verbose and includes tangents, but your main point seems to be that cultural, geographic, and historical factors have led to the marginalisation of imagination in Western Christian thought, except in its mystical traditions.
Aren’t you just stating what I have already said?
I am fascinated by the fact that in almost all traditions, we find the imaginal represented, but we reduce it to ‘fantasy’ or something ‘not real.’
Well yes, admittedly so, except summaries leave out a lot, and the things left out, namely the alienated can not be reduced, the familiar themes overlap with the familial ones,
The overlap of personal experience is the singular essential content by which we frame suceeding representations, that are uniquely handed down even before the printing press allowed literalization and institutionalization of the developing practice.
This is my own take on the matter, however.it’s known that many ‘mystics’ suffered a great deal during their life, and were alienated, they coined ‘alienists’ those, whom tried to share their feelings about what’s being revealed to them.usually it’s a terrible struggle.
Well yes, we do that but fantasy is like fiction, and science catches up with it, just like the race between the hare and the turtle, it defies real time reality, but then one day wake up, and the clouds of yesteryear turn into another realm. The clouds of content change the immaterial into the material at a certain point.
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Above is another cloud that may nominally relate to it’s predecessor
Like the examples you gave, it is through the imaginal that we dream of new possibilities. By envisioning a harmonious relationship with nature, a more inclusive spirituality, or a community rooted in awe and gratitude, we create the conditions for these possibilities to manifest. However, it is the current cultural fragmentation and modern technological detachment that distracts us from the philosophical considerations that have been part of religious traditions throughout the world.
I have misgivings about the direction that Christianity has taken humanity, despite the moral transformation attributed to it, which tends to direct our vision outwards, rather than acknowledging that introspection teaches us to ‘look again’ and discover what has often eluded us. This ‘look again’ has become very important in my considerations. We have a dwindling minority here who hold on to tradition out of habit and others who aren’t even vaguely interested. The idea that some form of ‘spiritual’ meaning is still retained in our society, albeit inconsequentially, evades many people. You find all kinds of “beliefs” represented, but nobody follows them “religiously.”
In the past I have attempted to show that psychology has in many ways taken on the problems that priests once tried to cope with, and that medicine has separated the symptoms of disease from the environmental causes. I found that my doctor hid a book on environmental causes of psychosomatic illnesses in his draw, and told me not to tell anyone, when I told him I had the same book. Additionally, a priest told me that he interpreted the scriptures from a psychological perspective, but didn’t dare tell people. The knowledge I was gaining was a kind of “under-the-counter” secret that was not brought out in the open so as to not drive more people away.
The odd thing was that I was reaching people in the care homes where I was manager when I was asked to stand in for pastors, and even staff found my sermons appealing – even the Muslim staff! On an anniversary of the house I worked in, I was asked to hold a sermon and was told at the last moment that several pastors and even the bishop would be present, which was unsettling to say the least, but they all came and congratulated me afterwards. Such were the conflicting experiences I had with organised religion. Monika was adamant that these were not experiences that would make a difference – and she was right.
I think that creating art is, in a way, religious, just as horticulture can be. It is really a question whether we bask in admiration or are pointing to something else, bigger than us. Art is a way to discover form, colour, shapes, and details that we normally overlook. It is a kind of “look again” that artists train us to see. In that way, a gardener is also an artist, and both are saying “look again,” which is what I imagine primal religion was doing. You find it in the Gospel of Matthew (6:26-29):
26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labour or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendour was dressed like one of these.
If we could get around the idea that such pursuits invite us to “look again” and cultivate a deeper awareness, it could resonate profoundly. Art and gardening, in their own ways, direct us toward wonder and an appreciation for the subtleties of existence that we often take for granted. Both practices teach us patience, attention to detail, and reverence for natural forms, which can indeed feel like a spiritual experience.
The Gospel of Matthew is emphasizing a way of seeing that transcends material concerns and invites trust in a larger, sustaining force. In that passage, Jesus asks his followers to observe the effortless beauty and provision in nature, highlighting how these elements reflect divine care. In the same way, artists and gardeners participate in a kind of sacred act by uncovering and honouring the beauty that already exists in creation.
I imagine this to align with primal or nature-based religions that saw the sacred embedded in the world around us. In their rituals and practices, these traditions invite a sense of interconnectedness, reminding us to marvel at the simple and extraordinary realities of life. Art and gardening, then, become acts of worship or devotion, gestures that reawaken our sense of awe and reconnect us to the divine in the everyday. If church services evoked this kind of spirit, I’m sure they would attract more people.
Religious fundamentalism contradicts this in many ways, despising nature as a source of sin, suspecting introspection as an invitation to evil (or ego), and diversity as a rebellion against a perceived “order”. Materialist fundamentalism is about exploiting nature rather than adapting to it. It suspects introspection as delusional and alternative hypotheses as something to be fought against.
The imaginal has a profound and indispensable role to play in this vision. The imaginal realm, as understood in traditions like Islamic mysticism, is not “imaginary” in the sense of being unreal but is a vital bridge between the material and spiritual dimensions of existence. It allows us to envision, interpret, and connect with realities that are not immediately accessible through reason or the senses alone.
In the context of art, gardening, and spirituality, the imaginal provides a bridge between the seen and unseen and enables us to perceive deeper truths hidden within everyday experiences. For example, the act of nurturing a plant becomes symbolic of spiritual growth, patience, and the interdependence of life. In the imaginal sense, the garden might represent paradise or the divine order underlying creation.
In Art, paintings, music, or poetry serve as vehicles that move beyond physical form to evoke universal archetypes or spiritual realities. This aligns with the idea that symbols and metaphors carry us into deeper layers of meaning.
The imaginal inspires us to “look again” at the world with fresh eyes, seeing beyond its surface. It transforms the mundane into something extraordinary, inviting us into a kind of spiritual attentiveness. This echoes the Gospel of Matthew’s invitation to see the lilies of the field and the birds of the air as reflections of divine care.
The imaginal reminds us of the sacred unity between all things. This is crucial in moving beyond both religious fundamentalism’s dualisms (sacred vs. profane, human vs. nature) and materialist reductionism, which denies deeper meanings.
The imaginal allows us to revisit and reinterpret ancient traditions, myths, and symbols, finding their relevance in modern contexts. For instance, primal religions, with their view of nature as imbued with the sacred, can inspire ecological awareness today. Unlike rigid dogmas, imaginal symbols and narratives are open-ended and resonate universally. They can serve as a common ground between diverse spiritual traditions and philosophies, fostering dialogue and mutual understanding.
Instead of focusing solely on dogma, churches might make a point of showing that their storytelling, art, and nature-inspired rituals are intended to evoke a deeper sense of connection. That way, religious institutions could help society and the imaginal could help bridge the gap between faith and personal experience, offering ways to engage with the divine that feel tangible and meaningful rather than making religion divisive and exclusive.
By embracing the imaginal, spiritual practices can cultivate the very qualities I’ve highlighted: patience, wonder, reverence, and interconnectedness. It becomes a way to not just think about the sacred but to experience it through participation in the beauty and mystery of life.
Just letting You know I just received the reply, and find it compelling a careful reading, more than a prima faciae reply could give due to it.
The fact is, that the objectivity I feel is required needs more time, in order to successfully answer consequently ,
Therefore without missing a beat, I will later today, seek to combine what I feel the be missing elements which bar the important points here, and combine it with the earlier remark made by You in reference I believe in the Gaza forum about the possible link to the use of weapons of mass destruction.
Objectivity is delineated unfortunately by the effect of quantum and relativity theory had inverse effects on uncertainty.
The magical coincidence of Thomas Mann upon this interaction may or may not meet the necessary criteria of convergence to make any significant progress in communication en mass, not to even begin to mention interpersonal relations on the level sought for in ILP, where holding to nihil, and fear of expressing quantum jumps are more prevalent than not.
So pls give some more elucidated time , in order to sort through the mystical reason for a sought after participation here, as I feel it’s magically induced necessity.
Your answer is overly verbose and includes tangents, but your main point seems to be that cultural, geographic, and historical factors have led to the marginalisation of imagination in Western Christian thought, except in its mystical traditions.
Aren’t you just stating what I have already said?
I am fascinated by the fact that in almost all traditions, we find the imaginal represented, but we reduce it to ‘fantasy’ or something ‘not real.’
Reducing to this pivotal point may be key to the strangeness of such representative images, for the mystical traditions may not be reduced, without aberration, and it is they that concern a commensurate possibility, even if they are reduced absurdly , albeit singularly parallel to their production. That said, I’ll chase my own tail if I was going to land there, inelegantly as it were, otherwise it would merely a refrain begging for a contentious substance within a framed, epoche or a fixed consequence the has faded into distinction and disuse.
So , again surprisingly, three psychologists come in mind who delineated ontology to a single level, from which they needed to abstract themselves from, for points of view that temporally need revision, as per the nature of the evolutionary principle that harmonizes both spiritual and substantive manifested levels of ideation, namely ideas as reigned in entities which can not get stuck by virtue of the process of evolution.
Particularly a political , and a religious division manifests that differentiation , which has echoed through human history, and early on at the dawn of civilization seeking synthesis those , which came through the various images , the profane being marginalized the sacred withstanding such processes .
As defined as priceless and permanent fixtures invariably fused with the very consciousness it defines, and is defined by its definition in turn. It has been categorized as insoluble and paradoxical , beyond even that , enigmatic.
The three thinkers are RD Laing, Eric Erickson and Victor Frankle All three consider alienation and marginalization of the imago, and their diversive positions.
The search for meaning for Frankle is a deontological reduction into the mystical approach, and from there he utilizes Kierkegaard’s repetitive experience to get to higher realms, like stairways to heaven, where the transcendental , sought after unity of experience is akin to William James’ Varieties of religious experience. Eric Erickson diverges by using such differences from the pragmatic approach of James, he validates consequences by using shades of grey to compensate for wide differences between the mode by which he can approach the levels of development , that consciousness needs to arrive at.
When in college, intending notable speakers without attending to prerequisite courses , hoping the missing links would later fill in, through Deus ex machina type of inputs, I had the pleasure of attending Laing’s appearance at the University of Southern California, it was as if his appearance was foreshadowed by some way not clear, and the topic at hand was schizophrenia. At the conclusion a past patient, a middle aged lady took the seat and presented her version of her’cure’ and that was followed by a video recording of a family that held a kind of seminar into her experience with their youngest son, who was diagnosed with the illness.
At the end of the presentation, all audience members were invited to participate, I among them. I asked him point blank if he might have
thought I was crazy by asking such a question knowing of his bend for and mystical philosophy,and he being the member of the 60’s generation.
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It was Frankle , who got closest for the tradition that I think you meant to enclose within the mythical tradition, for his search for meaning parallels Wittgenstein’s nominalism of insetting experience within brackets of common sense, but in reverse because Frankle can not reduce the irreducible ‘logos’ what is already an enigma. I would guess the enigma remains enigmatic because it is irreducible. Ericsson , on the other hand creates a ladder between the logos, and the praxis of Laing, whose methods are irregular yet experimental.
Now how does one, anyone pull this triad together into a comprehensible unity, linking the ancient science of the dialectic, through the different rungs which echo throughout the ages?
How does such alienation retro develop through the many sequences that Ericsson tries to distill into formulae?
Laing’s answer to my quiery was that he didn’t know , ( wether I was crazy or not, see your psychiatrist, he said) on parting I asked him what level of reality is that comment coming from, and he did not answer)
We are the last men and we need to take blinders off, lest it will be the final stretch in a race, where the simulation will necessarily outpace the real thing, and where drugs can no longer do the job of eliciting the high ground. On the contrary, the effects, like in movies will mask the authentic characterization of real human roles and appearances and will only shade the authentic intent of those, who still want to believe in the truth of what it is that makes us human .
