the need for control...

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

currently I am reading a book by Richard Sennett called
''The uses of disorder" and one of the ideas I am taking from
this book, (note, I am not done with the book) but this
idea that our lives, our cities, our existence must be
efficient… I know of people who guide every moment
of their children’s lives… no ''wasted" time in the kids life…
play, school, sports… are all used efficiently… the
horror of actually letting a kid just be a kid, is insane…

(when I was a kid, back in the stone age, my mom would kick us
out of the house around 3:30 and we weren’t allowed back into
the house until dark… what we did, was up to us… mind you, this
is small town Illinois… and everyone knew everyone else…
and we never locked our doors and quite often would leave
windows open, door unlocked even when we left the house for hours)
we weren’t raised ‘‘efficiently’’ but I could, even as a kid,
make my own choices…

I don’t believe that the point of existence is to be efficient,
because so much of the ‘‘human experience’’ is remarkable inefficient…
to give just a few examples, love, play, ART, walking on the beach,
are a few examples of human inefficiency… in fact, much of the
best part of being human has nothing to do with being efficient…

and I suspect the reason most people think they are failing in life is because
they are trying to be efficient and in control of life…
for example, I have it in my head that I must be CEO of
a corporation by the time I am 40… it isn’t the destination that
matters, it is the journey… at one time, I was a manager, and later
an assistant manager, (in different jobs) and I learned that I didn’t
want to move up the corporate ladder because it would have cost
my soul, well everything… I stopped being efficient in my jobs
and simply went in another direction… I focused on my thinking,
reading, writings… I made enough to allow my family to survive,
but I never made more then 30 thousand a year until I was 40…
and I was ok with that… I was doing something for me instead
of doing something that would have decreased my own happiness…
and I still, through my jobs, provided health insurance and food on
the table… I was very inefficient, and my life has been better for it…

so, do you desire or demand control or being efficient?
ask yourself, why? What need inside of me demands that I
require to be in control or to be efficient? Life isn’t about being efficient,
so why should I be efficient?

Kropotkin

2

in fact, I would suggest that part of the drive for
“efficiency” is fear… we are afraid of who we are because
we have no sense of our own, real identity… when ask, who are you?
people will say, worker, producer, CEO, priest, they will identify
themselves in terms of what they do for a living, instead of
who they are as human beings… who are you? I have asked
that question numerous times over the years and no one ever answers it…
I would suggest that is because few if any around here actually knows
who they are… and the one who actually does know who he is, is IAM…
and he is disliked for that very reason…(makes everyone else looks bad?)

the question of existence isn’t about making money or “becoming”
something, but the inefficient question of discovering who one is…
and that can take a lifetime and sometimes is never found…

Personally, I didn’t discover who I was until the last few years,
after I turned 50… but that was because I was blinded, willingly
I suppose, into seeking a living or making money or becoming something
that I wasn’t… I tried to play the game and failed miserably, mostly
because that wasn’t me… I am an inefficient person in an (pretend)
efficient world… as noted, I have no need for control… and that makes
me the exception rather than the rule… I am good with chaos and anarchy…

chaos and anarchy actually fits the universe better than efficiency and
control…

so, who are you?

Kropotkin

3

part of the attempt to be efficient, is to avoid pain/suffering
and seek happiness… happiness is assumed to be “more” efficient…
and pain/suffering is assumed to be “inefficient” and thus to be avoided…

and I am not afraid of either pain or happiness… because both
is part of the “admission” to this thing we call life…in life,
we cannot avoid suffering… it is part of life, but unlike many
who claim that suffering is a crucial/key factor in life, the Buddha
for example, live long enough and we will suffer… I suffer today from
my foot and shortly will suffer when my mother, who is 87, will die…
which is why I believe Buddhism to be wrong… we cannot avoid
suffering… it is part of the human experience, part of what makes
us human… and to avoid suffering is like trying to avoid growing old
or avoiding sickness… its gonna happen… what matters is how we
respond to the inevitably of suffering… we will, as I am today, growing
old, suffering from disease, knowing that at some point, sooner than later,
I shall follow my mother into death…it is part of the price of admission into
life…I can bewail that fact, or I can simply accept it as part of the cost
of existence… to exists is to suffer and to grow old and become diseased
and then finally die… to be blunt, life is suffering… and nothing will
change that… so, instead of being “efficient” and try to avoid suffering,
I can simply accept it and move on… there is no point in which I can
control my growing old, or avoid disease or dying… it will happen…
so I let it go… as something I cannot change or control…
I simply let it be… and I no longer stress about something I
have no control over… I have, as I often say, have other fish to fry…

Kropotkin

4

You are defining efficiency in a way that is unique to your own mind.

I don’t want to waste my time.

This is a big existential issue.

What ought we do with our time?

5

To Peter

<I suspect the reason most people think they are failing in life is because
they are trying to be efficient and in control of life

The reasons most people fail to achieve their ultimate goal (whether to be the greatest musician, athlete or businessman) is that, at certain point, they give up to seek the superior information which give them the edge, do not know how to discipline daily, and have the core belief that they are not-that-special (usually instilled/brainwashed by their parents). [EG] If you were to be the greatest pianist, you can’t just “mindlessly” practice 12 hours a day which will absolutely get you nowhere!!! You must know the most effective & efficient way to coordinate all of your muscle as to use “only minimum energy” to be spent to move your fingers and produce sounds, whereas most mediocre pianists (who can not play like Horowitz) usually use way excessive energy with very tight (instead of relaxed, flexible and light) muscle. If you know the right information (though extremely tough to find!!!), do the daily discipline, I can see anyone can achieve almost any significant goals!

6

Horowitz is a shitty pianist.

So is Marc-Andre Hamelin.

The best recorded pianist of all time is Cziffra.

youtu.be/n19dejb5dj0

He’s playing the melody in octaves which is not how the song was written.

Nobody has touched cziffra, nor may ever

7

To Ecmandu

<The best recorded pianist of all time is Cziffra.

I am VERY familiar with Cziffra and think he is a fine pianist (not a bad one) with lots of virtuostic technique but I personally do not care so much about how fast or loud you can play. I tend to care much more about your musicality.

<Horowitz is a shitty pianist.

Are you joking? If not, are you sure you are not retarded or deaf? If you really think Horowitz is a shitty (not even a regular or mediocre) pianist, can you give us youtube link to demonstrate what you mean? I’d die to hear Horowitz play the piano “shitty”. :slight_smile:

youtu.be/plC6FMLVvEo [Horowitz playing Chopin Mazurka] If you think this is a shitty interpretation, give us youtube link of a pianist who you think plays better. There has been no other pianist existing who had this level of infinite colors and expression from this instrument. The great composer/pianist of the 19th century “Rachmaninoff” [as well as too many other eminent music figures] had stated Horowitz was the greatest! Ecmandu, so by you calling Horowitz a shitty pianist, you (or your music opinion) are supposed to be superior to Rachmaninoff, correct? If so, I’d DIE to hear (& see) you playing the piano! Is there any link you can send to us? Or you are nothing but a complete deaf idiot (or mindless criticizer) who thinks the Sun will rise from the West (instead of East) next year???

8

Being a virtuoso does not make you good.

You have to play feeling itself.

Anyone who knows anything about pianists recorded knows that Dinu Lipatti is the best Chopin waltz player ever…

Even the way he ordered the waltzes is considered the standard order now.

But!!

I’ve listened to all the international Chopin competitions…

And there’s always that one person who wins who can play that one song even better than Dinu.

That’s the way of the world.

There’s always that one person.

9

To ECMANDU

I have a lot of things to say but first of all, where is the youtube link which Horowitz playing the piano “shitty”??? If you can not provide it, then you’d better retract your statement or (intelligent) viewers here will think you are a LIAR or IDIOT!! So DO provide us to support your point!!! Second, Dinu lipatti is a great pianist, one of my favorites, who not only plays Chopin great but also with Bach, Mozart and others! But that does not mean he is superior to Horowitz at all!!! As for the most recent International Chopin competition took place last year (or all of the past ones!), I totally agree with the jury’s verdict to choose “Bruce Liu” as the winner, though their decision can be totally wrong such as the case in 1980 which Ivo Pogorelich could not even go to the final round when his talent in fact far surpasses the one of Dang Thai Son who was chosen to be the winner that year. Anyway, DO provide us of the link which Horowitz playing the piano “shitty”!!!

10

It’s very simple.

Here’s not quite a virtuoso, but he plays dry.

You have real virtuosos like Raymond Lewenthal and George Bolet who outplay these current ‘virtuousos’ like Lang Lang …

It’s fucking pathetic.

Horowitz is easily beaten by female pianists in his renditions.

I’m glad we found each other… we seem to know similar shit.

Dubravska Tomsic and Silvia Capova play Beethoven WAY better than Horowitz and they’re both women.

Beethoven is not the pinnacle though …

People like Alkan or Godowsky brought virtuoso to a different level…: like Shulz-Eveler

Don’t even get me started on Arnoldo Cohen (who has the best Totentanz).

Also… don’t get me started on Balasz Szokolay who has the best Danse Macabre. (Or is it Jandu Jeno)… fuck… I’d have to flip through 20,000 CD’s to find it.

I’m the kind of person who listens to 50-109 people play the same song.

You really don’t think Cziffra is the best recorded pianist of all time ?

Look at this transcription…

youtu.be/hV0Ixz8MvBA

11

So…

While we’re nerding out on this stuff…

My collection not in storage is about 1000-2000 CDs

My favorite composer of all… dominico scarlatti.

I’m a piano nerd.

12

Question maybe you nerds can answer. Why is there a comma between Dear & Dolores?

& why does another version switch out Dolores with Utopia?

What’s the backstory?

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57DA3533-23EB-45DF-AE5F-CBA2F5CCD25A.jpeg750×399 101 KB

13

To ECMANDU

I could respond (or rebut) every single sentences you wrote but I will not waste my time. Not worth it. Instead,I will simply go back to my original question. SHOW US the clip which Horowitz plays the piano “shitty” as you called Horowitz a shitty pianist. Otherwise, intelligent viewer here will consider you a LIAR or IDIOT! So far you have NOT showed us a single clip to prove your point, instead, spelling out all the worthless bullshit. And do NOT call our dialogue “our nerding out” because your level is NOT EVEN CLOSE to mine!!!

<You really don’t think Cziffra is the best recorded pianist of all time ?

Your sentence shows you either have a comprehension problem or bad short term memory. I clearly said that I acknowledge (& admire) his virtuosity but I could care less about how loud, fast your fingers can move. I care more for musicality (subtlety, sensitivity) thus I showed Horowitz’s version of Chopin Mazurukas perfectly demonstrate my point. Go fu*king show us any pianist who plays the Mazurkas better that that recording, only if you can!!! Do you really think that particular Mazuruka recording by Horowitz is “shitty”???

14

Quickly off the top of my head I can think of a woman named Kelly Yost for Mazurkas.

I can also say that Cziffra is not just pyrotechnics… he’s the only pianist though that I know of who plays extremely fast with subtlety.

You won’t find any of this on youtube (Cziffra playing slow songs) or Kelly Yost playing Mazurkas.

I think the most tragic part of the internet is how many performers (especially classical piano) will be lost.

CDs and dvds are being phased out for the cloud now.

If it’s not there, it’s gone.

15

To ECMANDU

You are purposely or too stupidly (and unknowingly) evading to answer THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION!!! So I will repeat! SHOW US the clip which Horowitz playing the piano “shitty”!! I will keep repeating this until you retract your original statement or showing us the clip! FYI

I absolutely do NOT care everything you had said in the past (most of which were ABSOLUTE CRAP!!) or you are going to say in the future, other than “your answer to this question”!

16

You’re being obtuse. I already told you virtuosos can play shitty. Horowitz is one of them.

Any performance I can pick of his is shitty relative to others.

What? Just because he didn’t miss a note makes him good?

There are thousands of pianists who don’t miss notes who suck.

You probably have “first listening bias”

Anyways… Cziffra has lots of pieces, including Chopin, that nobody will ever play better…

Not true of Horowitz.
Not true of Marc-Andre Hamelin
Not true of Rubinstein

I mean… fuck. We have recordings of Rachmaninoff and he couldn’t even play his own damn songs as well as has been recorded by others.

17

To ECMANDU

<I already told you virtuosos can play shitty. Horowitz is one of them.

Wow! :slight_smile: Go back and RE-READ carefully of what I said about Horowitz!! Did I ever mention (or show my admiration) about Horowitz because he had a virtuoso technique that he never missed a note??? If you thought so, you have a serious comprehension problem.

<Any performance I can pick of his is shitty relative to others.

One performance may be little superior to others (decently good one) but that does NEVER make others “shitty”. Certainly no piano recording will make any of Horowitz recording “shitty”!!! And so far, you have NOT given us a link of Horowitz playing the piano “shitty”!!

<There are thousands of pianists who don’t miss notes who suck.

This shows you have almost no critical thinking skill. Go back and re-read what kind of pianist I would personally admire. This statement is completely irrelevant in the context we are talking about!

<Cziffra has lots of pieces, including Chopin, that nobody will ever play better…

No, Cziffra’s Chopin is OK, not necessary bad one but definitely not formidable interpretation. His way to playing Opus 10-1 [Etude number one] is very fast and impressive, showing his virtuosity, but that’s it! Absolutely nothing more! There are so many others who play Chopin more musically and artistically (with incredible singing quality) including Horowitz, Lipati. Bruce Liu plays Chopin so much more artistic (and interesting like Glenn Gould, Pogorelich ) than Cziffra could ever play!

< We have recordings of Rachmaninoff and he couldn’t even play his own damn songs as well as has been recorded by others.

This conclusively proves you are “MUSICALLY DEAF”!! Period!!! Rachmaninoff is one of the greatest pianists ever lived. If you don’t think so, fine. This made me convinced that I should not waste any more time with you. I’m very sure all the intelligent (& cultured) viewers here will judge our conversation fairly. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: In the mean time, keep spewing out all the CRAP and BULLSHIT! HAHAHAHA :slight_smile:

18

I don’t like Glenn Gould. Like Horowitz he’s over rated just because he can hit the notes.

We’re talking past each other.

I wouldn’t go to Cziffra for etudes … ballades and polonaises are where he excels.

There are lots of things Cziffra has played that people have played better than him.

I agree with you.

But there are some things Cziffra played that won’t be topped.

You can’t say the same about Horowitz.

Let’s turn the table on you…

Show me a single Horowitz performance I can’t find a better rendition of

19

Some consider Liszt to have ever been considered over and above the reach and artistry among all other pianists past and present.

Just saying…

20

Liszt was never recorded

We’re talking about recordings.

Although … strangely enough, Cziffra insisted he was a reincarnation of Liszt.