The physical, undeniable proof of my theory (finally!)

Even that supposes a seperation- just the kind that I'm talking about. In the model you describe above, "I" (which you seperate from the gut) would wait for those signals from the gut, and then I would [i] choose [/i] to either obey my gut or else not (Surely you've gone against your gut instinct, and regretted it later, haven't you?). Either way, choice can't be described as 'waiting for my brain to make me do stuff', at least, not the way I experience it. 

I do my thinking. My brain is what I use to do it, no doubt.

That 'I' word is your whole problem. Illusion. In order for your theory to work it has to revolve around the idea that something we seem to experience nearly every waking moment of our lives is, in fact, an illusion. I can only speak for myself, but the 'illusion' of free will is no more or less strong than the 'illusion' of causation, or the 'illusion' that if a is taller than b, and b is taller than c, then a is taller than c.  You can compose an argument for determinism as strong as you wish, and I can get an equally powerful counter-argument by playing a game of checkers. 
 Simply put, your whole theory involves one of the most basic things to human experience being an illusion. You make the same mistake Berkeley did- you try to tell people that everything they know is a lie, and then you wonder why it isn't obvious to everyone.   It doesn't make you wrong, it just means you have a nearly insurmountable burden of proof. 
It is no doubt difficult to explain where free will comes from, but the determinist doesn't get away from that- they just have the job of explaining where the [i]appearence[/i] of free will comes from.  Why do we seem to be conscious beings?

No, I think it is you who is missing it. Please read my following post carefully and have a think about what I say before posting a reply.

I have already given you a possible way out of it in my previous post, an absolute initial cause which has no previous cause and just ‘is’.

Where do you get this from? Lets have a think about this problem. There is a lower limit in size which we can measure with certainty defined by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Basically, below that lower limit, we can not measure both the position and momentum of an object with any certainty.

So what are the ramifications of this? We cannot know what caused an event for an object below this lower limit. Therefore, for all we know, and according to Heisenberg, for all we will ever know, there could be an absolute initial cause or there could be an infinite regress. The point here is, WE DON’T KNOW.

What you are basically saying is this: X was caused by Y, and Y was caused by Z etc. under this set of circumstances, therefore every event must have a cause under ALL circumstances. That is incorrect. An infinite regress of causes is not an absolute truth.

Ok, lets take a definition of ‘reason’, again from dictionary.com:

So what you are basically saying is that: “The basis or motive of why we are here is to carry out a chain of events”

Can you see the problem with this? From the deterministic view point, our life will consist of a set of events which have been caused by another set of events, which has been caused by another set of events etc. etc., again the infinite regress. So basically taking this viewpoint, we are INVOLVED in events, whether we like it or not, we are not CARRYING OUT events. This implies choice, which is exactly what you are arguing against.

Also by using the word reason, which is a basis or motive, whose basis and motive is it that we are here to carry out events?? Here you are implying design, or the will of another being.

As for meaning, well the definition of meaning is:

So what you are saying is that: “The goal, intent or end of life is to carry out a chain of events”. If it is the person’s goal that you are referring to, well no matter what happens, from the deterministic viewpoint, you will carry out a set of events which are beyond your choice. What goal or meaning is there in that? If you are referring to a sort of ‘universal’ goal, again you are necessarily implying some sort of higher consciousness.

What religion part!!? Did you even read the definition I gave earlier? You have taken determinism nowhere.

Ahhhh no, I don’t think I will

noleyG
If you believe the universe ‘just is’ you ignore determinism, causality and chaos theory. If you do that go see the religion thread cause that’s where ideas that can’t be proved belong.

Frankly Noley i think you are trying to intimidate me so that i will say something to get kicked off the board. A nice strategy, but it won’t suceed.
You can’t protect the world from me, i admire you for trying, but you will fail.
Please, i don’t want to insult either of you, please leave this thread if you don’t wish to learn conclusive determinism.
It is a very christian view that it is your responsibility to convert me to free will, but i can’t be converted.
In fact i’m here to bring on the downfall of religion.
if the universe isn’t random there is no interfering god.
The universe is fixed so there is no interfering god.
That’s blasphemy by the way, if you want to charge me, go ahead, you’ll only force me to prove it to the courts and then they’ll have to declare religion in law and politics illegal.
(evil laugh) technically speaking the church is guilty of mass fraud as well.

Do you want to see the end of religion? no? then don’t provoke the devil!

Life is a chain of events.
the meaning of life is to carry out those events.
Either accept it or leave this thread

good day to you both.
nice debating with you.
matt

noleyg

you make the same mistake as all other philosophers.

" you will carry out a set of events which are beyond your choice. What goal or meaning is there in that? If you are referring to a sort of ‘universal’ goal, again you are necessarily implying some sort of higher consciousness."

  1. the meaning and goal is to carry out a chain of events. you make the same mistake as all other philosophers you assume that because yu can’t give your life meaning somehow your life has no meaning.
    2 no, any higher being would be part of the chain of events

Yeah, that’s exactly what I am trying to do. Well done you caught me :unamused:

So basically, this is saying, “if you don’t agree with me, bugger off”. Nice argument. You haven’t addressed any of my criticisms with decent arguments, you just continue to repeat your mantra, so I will no longer try to argue with you. I have had arguments with brick walls before on this site and it is a pointless waste of my time.

Yes, free will is not something to be debated here this is for development of this philosophy:
Life is a chain of events
the meaning of life is to carry out those events.

Ok no offense here Mat, but I’m gonna take care of your little theory here right now. What you arguing is determinism, it’s been around forever, do you honestly think you’ve just up and solved it?

Consider this. It’s a fact that human thought can influence matter. It’s been proven that someone’s emotional and conscious state of mind will actually influence the molecular makeup of water. If someone wants to dispute, but if anyone has seen or wants to look up the documentary ‘What the #^%* do we know?’ they talk about it as well.

So with this in mind Mat you theory becomes obsolete for the following reasons. Life is not a -determined- chain of events as you’ve stated, life is a -sequence- of events that seem to be influenced by our free will. Now if I can manipulate matter at will, then where does that said matter lie in the chain of events? It is not determined, it’s just there, like a river; it flows, but you can disturb it. If one instant I want to affect matter its self, there can be no convienient more broad explainable factor, to go beyond our minds is out of bounds as far as this discussion is considered.

Now this is not to say I’ve explained free will either, the discussion gets very complex, but this definition is enough to refute your rather simple argument.

Don’t take this the wrong way, you’re young, we all learn from our mistake, and more importantly the mistakes of others.

i’m only part arguing determinism.

The chain of events applies to something else.
Poorly explained i’ll admit.

My theory is that the meaning of life is what life is.
Life is a chain of events, the meaning of life is to carry out those events.
That’s my theory. Show me where in determinism, this is quoted.

What i then did was use my theory to show how this chain of events is achieved. the method being determinism.

I hypothsise that if the meaning of life is to carry out a chain of events, then determinism is correct.
You can still have a chain of events if the universe runs on free will.
That’s why i’m NOT argung determinism.

Read and think.

I took this up with Julian Bagini who does say that my COE theory is new.
Since he is one of the greatest philosophers that have ever existed and you are…well, i shall just ignore your last post.

you old gobbo need to read and think more carefully before you take on someone whose intelligence and international success far exceeds their credentials.
(my iq 149 - 180, Without training in film music i have landed 2 major hollywood movies and 19 other projects, I am 18. What the heck are you?)

I think I’m someone who doesn’t need to brag about my own personal success to strangers who a) don’t give a shit and b) have no way of knowing if I’m even telling the truth

This isn’t a personal attack here, but I don’t really understand what this is saying… at all, it’s not that I’m trying to ‘show you up’ or insult your intelligence, you’re doing that on your own.

ha.
See, you said that my theory was determinism which i pointed out was not the case.

you might not have meant it as a personal attack, but

to me is taken as a personal attack.

I’m sorry. I’m asperger’s so i don’t take a joke, i take any form of criticism as a personal attack and i respond in a similar manner.

So ignore my previous post and read this:
A) i came up with cd over a year ago.
B) every other philosopher made the same points and were dismissed at hand by the people who said they’d never heard of a chain of events.
C)there are 7.3 exp 41 x number of objects in existence, events every second. This theory details and explains the meaning of them all. Did you honestly think that the basics of this complex theory posted as “conclusive determinism” could mean so little?

You want proof of my abilities take a look at freewebs.com/revelationthemovie/ for corroberation
when it’s up and running take a look at
thesedreams.co.za/

wanna hear? mp3.com.au/mattmilne

I didn’t boast, i simply gave you a few details to give you an idea of the mind behind the theory in the hope that you would see there might be more to it than meets the eye.

sorry to sound so ratty, i didn’t mean it, just try to understand where i’m coming form. That’s all. I have had to fight for every success i have achieved. Forced to leave university because i lacked in academics i had to go it alone. It’s not like the sports world where anyone who displays a lot of talent gets the funding to get the personal training. In the music world, unless you’re in uni you don’t get a cent.

If you want to see what hollywood folks think of my work you can read at
indietalk.com/showthread.php … ge=1&pp=15

John Roach the screenwriter has the nickname satire on that site.
Look i am sorry for that last response, i tend to get really angry when people just look at the surface, and then make further presumptions when i respond in an irrational manner.
do take no notice.

sincerely
matt

Ok I looked at the links, one is broken, one is an article about yourself that you wrote, and another is just to some other message board where a couple people said ‘hey cool music’.

I’m not doubting the fact that you’re a smart, talented guy. I’m sure you, you know… you do you your music for films for free and stuff and that’s cool.

But as for this ‘chain of events’ Theory: just because no one in real life has had the guts (or intelligence) to tell you that it’s not really original, or sound (at least not from what you’ve said to us so far) doesn’t mean that it’s not.

I came up with that theory in like grade 10, and I’m being completely honest here.

I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this, and I hope you prove me wrong here, (I really do) but this isn’t a breakthrough, and I’m not gonna look to see you on Leno anytime soon as ‘the man who found the meaning of life’

yea i know, i know. But look at your life, that’s all i ask.
Does it comply with my theory that the meaning of life is to carry out a chain of events.

please tell me where " The meaning of life is to carry out a chain of events" is quoted in determinism. Really, i’d like to know, cause me, an over qualified philosopher and no-one else on this site have ever seen it.

My discovery is said quoted phrase. Determinism implies it, but never actually says it. and the founder of a philosophy or indeed the discoverer of a universal truth is not the person who thought it in their head, but the person who first quoted it, in the exact words.

So far i seem to be the only person in the world who has said “the meaning of life is to carry out a chain of events” in those exact words.

If you do understand it, however, instead of arguing why don’t you help out with its development. I’m always looking for keen and intelligent minds to explain the ideas further.

This theory is unlike determinism because it explains random events which determinism does not. (determinsim states that random events don’t exist, the revised theory explains how they fit in)

i’ll admit the original paper used determinism to arrive at the new conclusion which is why it is called conclusive determism, but it is a new theory for this reason:

There is a meaning of life and it is to carry out life.
Determinism leaves the question of meaning wide open hence nihilism and other such nonsense. This theory does not.
This theory is unlike determinism because it answers 2 questions conclusively.

Is there meaning to life? YES
What is it? to live life as you live it.

Just to start I will bring up some flaming.

Signs and symptoms of mania (or a manic episode) include:
* Increased energy, activity, and restlessness
* Excessively “high,” overly good, euphoric mood
* Extreme irritability
* Racing thoughts and talking very fast, jumping from one idea to another
* Distractibility, can’t concentrate well
* Little sleep needed
* Unrealistic beliefs in one’s abilities and powers
* Poor judgment
* Spending sprees
* A lasting period of behavior that is different from usual
* Increased sexual drive
* Abuse of drugs, particularly cocaine, alcohol, and sleeping medications
* Provocative, intrusive, or aggressive behavior
* Denial that anything is wrong

Clearly he is controlled by this. Since he shows his symptoms.

About your theroy:
[size=117]A question while you still believe it:[/size]
You claim that the world/life/everything is a chain. If I set my alarm clock and during the nigh there is a power surge the clock is fried and I don’t wake up. Was the surge meant to happen? Was I ment to fail?

[size=117]As to disproving your theory:[/size]
Here is the real reason it fails: Something must be controlling the chain, or the even just happen. In which case it is Random. If the controller is random then the events in the chain are random as well. If they are not random then someone is controlling it (god like figure). Thus the god cannot be controlled by the chain. So either way the chain cannot exist!

Good point about the mania thing… I noticed Mat’s ‘jumping aroundness’ with his ideas… but it didn’t really register.

Heh… overqualified philosopher, isn’t that an oxymoron?

Thanks.

And for the oxymoron I don’t know…
And he still hasn’t even bothered to reply to my post. I want his answer how he explains his thesis/thery/system.

AuroraAlpha,

What do you mean by “random” here? Do you mean in the sense that when an event happens “randomly”, some other event could have happened instead? Or, do you mean that the event is “random” because it occured without any purpose?

I’ve not read all of Mat’s theory that closely, but it seems to me like if he were to read liturature on ancient Stoic philosophy, he would find quite a bit that he agrees with (and also probably find that his ideas are actually 2500 years old). The Stoics were determinists who believed that the path to happiness consisted in acceptance of the way that nature has determined one to live. They also believed in “divine providence” (which I don’t agree with), which is basically that this world is the best of all possible worlds that could be imagined. I do however think that the realization and acceptance that we are not autonomous “first causes”, but rather are constrained to live according to abilities that nature has (non-purposfully) granted us, is conducive to living happiy.

Iss

I think, (and I could be wrong here) that what AuroraAlpha was trying to say that if you take the chain mat is talking about, it exists as a ‘chain in motion’ – in other words, there must have been some initiating instance which set the chain of events in motion (ie God). Now say there was no first instance or person ‘holding’ the chain, then it still could be said to exist as a chain… but since no one gave it the first ‘whip’ to send a wave of ‘time’ through it, then all events in the chain would be considered random as there is no real causality there. So in response to your question, they would be considered random because yes… there is no real ‘purpose’ to 1 action, as it relates to another, as Mat would assert in his ‘god holding the chain’ theory.

wadr, firstly, don’t you know a list when you see one?

secondly, this is a different viewpoint of free will and determinism i sent to scyth a while ago:

I prefer to live in a world where things happen for a reason, that way, things can be done to stop it from happening again.

You folks can believe in a world where an electron, after being released from the sun travells to earth and impacts with its victem because it felt like it.

i prefer to live in a world where the electron is released by a chain of events. In conjunction with other chains, the electron is sent towards earth. At the same time as it is doing this a chain of events is happening that is causing its victem to move to the location where the 2 paths will cross thus resulting in the impact and aftermath.

You folks believe in a rediculous and unscientific world where everything in the universe happens because it felt like happening, i will live in a world where things happen for a reason.

lets end this rediculous exchange with agreeing to disagree hmm?
I know i won’t budge, nor can i change you. you folks know that i can’t be persuaded to your random way of thinking so lets just leave it at that.

There is one subject that you and i agree on gobbo, and that is politics, i suggest we banter there. perhaps we can agree on a few more things, we might actually get somewhere.

agreed