The Scary Part of Religion

[Jayson]

I still don’t see much of a similarity there…

What I want is to advocate that Religion, as a rules, not just for these folks, is watched for overt violent anti-society propaganda with militant methodologies.

I do understand your core views on Religion; I also happen to disagree with most of it, and we both already know that, so there’s no point in that road at all.

What I don’t see a point is in thinking that someone that…oh, I don’t know…agrees with every atheist attack on Religion about the dangers of Religion and agrees some kind of regulation should be in play to help keep Religion from encouraging violence proactively as part of it’s belief system…thinking that someone like that is somehow just like someone that says that they want people to die for their Religions.

Human life and the value of it is a very large wedging difference.

So, no, I don’t see myself as the same on this at all.
No more the same as wanting criminals off of the street is the same as wanting to be a criminal committing the crime.

[Nah]

@TheStumps

I still don’t see much of a similarity there…

Sure. You are not interested in finding similarities.
If you do, you may not be able to see them as bad people (bad religion, bad parent, bad lover, bad whatever).

But both of you are scared (of potential harm).
Both think in victim mentality in which you consider yourself right/good/justified/etc.
But the basis for thinking in this self-righteous manner is pretty subjective (or simple reaction to fear, or fear itself).
Both are illogical.

You talk about “life”, but you don’t value the life of others when you consider them bad. It’s just like these silly Christians in the video.

I do think you are scared of them because you know how they are. And you know how they are because you are like them, in essence.
Sure, you might be more moderate, less fanatic, and slightly more logical.
But you both share similar mental attitude, that of illogical and self-righteous victim mentality.

And victim mentality reduces the empathy. You would be less capable of feeling )or at least imagining) the fear and suffering of others.
This allows you to harm others, and fosters violence, in different forms.

You are scared of them and you want to remove them.
Legal attacks may seem less harmful, but the intention in removing (which is harming) the enemy is the same as killing your enemy.

[Sidhe]

@TheStumps

It’s not cowardice when you call for legal action.
It’s saying that this should handled accordingly under law so that violent militant propaganda doesn’t run freely coursing through a very powerful and influential force; religion.

People always bitch that religion is the cause for a number of violent actions throughout history.
I am saying…yes, because no one has taken a stance against violent religious stances until it’s too late and the only option is violent suppression.

Its a conundrum isn’t it, a violent stance by its nature oppresses the freedom of others, or encourages people to oppress others. But to then restrict that freedom to oppress others is a breach of their civil rights? The “right” to condemn someone on the basis of their beliefs or at its worst, to encourage violence, is no moral right at all though IMO. Can you really see any laws to inhibit hate speech in terms of religion coming into practice though in the US?

I know you just meant the US but we have laws against religious intolerance in the EU. You’re not allowed to encourage intolerance or violence towards any religion or lack of it. It’s seldom used except to kick out nutty clerics who preach a message of hate or to up the sentences of religiously motivated hate crimes. Sadly I can’t see many European states interfering with Jesus Camps though (or whatever the European equivalent is), even if they are abhorrent. Unless there was some report that violence was caused to other religious/a-religious groups by their methods, or it was revealed by Louis Theroux they were preaching a message liable to incite hatred or violence, it’d probably go unnoticed. You have to be Fred Phelps insane to get kicked out I think.

[Jayson]

@Nah

@TheStumps

I still don’t see much of a similarity there…

Sure. You are not interested in finding similarities.
If you do, you may not be able to see them as bad people (bad religion, bad parent, bad lover, bad whatever).

But both of you are scared (of potential harm).
Both think in victim mentality in which you consider yourself right/good/justified/etc.
But the basis for thinking in this self-righteous manner is pretty subjective (or simple reaction to fear, or fear itself).
Both are illogical.

You talk about “life”, but you don’t value the life of others when you consider them bad. It’s just like these silly Christians in the video.

I do think you are scared of them because you know how they are. And you know how they are because you are like them, in essence.
Sure, you might be more moderate, less fanatic, and slightly more logical.
But you both share similar mental attitude, that of illogical and self-righteous victim mentality.

And victim mentality reduces the empathy. You would be less capable of feeling )or at least imagining) the fear and suffering of others.
This allows you to harm others, and fosters violence, in different forms.

You are scared of them and you want to remove them.
Legal attacks may seem less harmful, but the intention in removing (which is harming) the enemy is the same as killing your enemy.

No…I had recoil in strength because they were talking to KIDS and I’m weak against horrible crap and kids because I have two cute daughters that I love with all of my heart.
I can’t watch certain shows and movies since having them; it actually just disturbs me too much.

For instance, I’m pissed off at the makers of drunken driving commercials that start off with home video of babies and toddlers without any warning that this baby is now dead prior.
Fucking assholes.

Well, this lady pissed me off because these are kids.
They don’t need all of this baggage.

Damn, they haven’t even had stress over their first boyfriend or girlfriend, or their first puppy dying, and you want to stress them out with the spiritual warfare of the entire world to the extent of physical violence?

Sorry, but…fuck you.
(Not you nah, you was meant rhetorically toward such a concept as the previous)

And I do think it should be restricted, just like I think that God should remain the fuck on out of our schools.
If that makes me some scared person in your mind nah, then so be it I suppose.

And Sid.

I think I draw the line on the subject when the hate speech freedom is used to fuck with the minds of children; especially with violent encouragement.
I believe that’s where I draw the line.

Have your parades, hate anyone you want, hold riots, beat your chests, cry out in tongues, point fingers, scream hate chants, etc…
But getting the children to be involved in the previous list?

That’s too much.

[humegotitright]

But Stumps, surely these people are doing what we all do, teaching our children what we think is right. You do it, I do it, teachers do it, so do these people. Obviously teaching our children isn’t wrong (maybe it is, who knows) so what you are disagreeing with is the content. But we then need an independent reason why the content is wrong, other than it doesn’t fit with what we believe. And similarly we need an independent reason why what we teach is right, other than it is what we believe. Not many parents would teach a child to walk out unsupervised onto the road, and for good reason, the child would be killed. Is majority rules a good basis for right and wrong? Do we even have objective morality which can give us an independent reason? In the above example we could say teaching a child not to walk out onto the road unsupervised is right because it protects the child from fatal harm. But what about the content of what the people in the video are teaching can we point to and say objectively this is wrong.

The best I hope for is to teach my kids to think for themselves. But then, disaster! That in itself is a subjective value. Oh well…

[Oughtist]

I dunno, I don’t think the hope of teaching children to think for themselves is merely a subjective value. I think it’s supremely a subjective value.

To be confident enough in one’s personal opinions, combined with being sober enough to admit that one’s perspective is partial at best, and then to pass such sober confidence to one’s children by ensuring to provide them a continuum of choices is, I think, the litmus test for ensuring a stable intersubjective relationship.

To close childrens’ minds off to the point that they are shuddering in neurotic rapture about “God”, and how they must be prepared freely to enter death on His account, is, I believe, destructive of subjective health. I would argue it is objectively wrong.

Teaching kids not to get run over by cars (objectively right) involves certain empirical clarities which are not comparable to voraciouly indoctrinating minors about metaphysical irrealities.

[Jayson]

What Ougtie said.

I couldn’t have said that better.

[felix_dakat]

@TheStumps

First, I don’t think the following is unique to Christianity; this just happens to be the largest religion of the nation that I am from, so it is the representative of Religion largely in this country, nor did I make this video nor do I agree with the term, “demonize” as a characterization of what is being done by making this video.
I also think that placing the title, “Brain Washing” ahead of the footage is poor taste as it immediately biases the watchers; please try to watch this ignoring the poster of the video’s title commentary.

Second, I don’t think all Christians are like this; actually, I know that they are not.

Third, I feel compelled to put this out there for discussion because it’s just about the most disturbing methods of religious practice that I have come across in quite a while.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2STDH14aJVk[/youtube]

To me…the saddest part is that there is nothing that can be done about this hysterical brainwashing (The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation).
Aside from the extremely questionable methods used to teach children, they also are placing in the seeds for potential political violence by isolating the children from the nation they live in and telling them their government is against them, and further having the children smash icons of various aspects of their government system and it’s representatives in the form of porcelain cups with a hammer.

That last act is a very violent act for a child when the premise is to “release the spirit”, suggesting that destruction of government systems or individuals by your own hand releases God’s spirit from being imprisoned by these “evil” systems and representatives.

This is, to me, no different than militant fanatic religion.

And again…it is sad that there is nothing that can be done to stop this that won’t match the horribleness of what they are doing, or fuel their propaganda.

Practices like these are why I left organized religion.

[Mad_Man_P]

C’mon guys! This isn’t rocket science… put yourself in their shoes for a second… in no way are they crossing any kind of line with these kids. They don’t mean them harm… nor are they using the kids to harm others. They are trying to make sure the kids don’t end up in hell… for ETERNITY… Which they would if they got duped by some atheist or muslim or anyone else who would try to challange their faith.

The problem here is WHAT these people believe… NOT how they are treating their kids.

We’d all be treating our kids the exact same way, if we believed what they do!

Anyone who says different is either a callous monster or full of shit.

[Jayson]

There are several million Christians world wide that aren’t teaching their kids like this, so it can’t just be their common Christian customs that other Christians have that cause this.

If by what they believe you mean that they believe the entire world should be forced to be their version of Christian and that the evil of Satan is anything that is not on their direct side, and that all of these enemies should be destroyed before they destroy them…I agree.

And guess what…when you believe something that extreme and dire, you teach extreme.

You make it sound like we’re missing something.
All I see is the same thing.

And I stick to what I said previously…if these folks were Islamic in America, they would be shut down and their leaders would be sitting in Guantanamo.

[Sidhe]

@TheStumps

And Sid.

I think I draw the line on the subject when the hate speech freedom is used to fuck with the minds of children; especially with violent encouragement.
I believe that’s where I draw the line.

Have your parades, hate anyone you want, hold riots, beat your chests, cry out in tongues, point fingers, scream hate chants, etc…
But getting the children to be involved in the previous list?

That’s too much.

I quite agree, but even with Europe’s liberal laws you probably couldn’t touch the families right to raise their children how they saw fit. I think if they did whatever voodoo they made up to indoctrinate the little slavelings in a private setting they’d probably be untouchable (within reason).

[Mad_Man_P]

@TheStumps

There are several million Christians world wide that aren’t teaching their kids like this

Maybe those christians don’t believe in hell? Pre-destination? or some other made up shit… There are probably as many versions of christianity as there are christians! And who knows what they teach their kids behind closed doors?

If by what they believe you mean that they believe the entire world should be forced to be their version of Christian and that the evil of Satan is anything that is not on their direct side, and that all of these enemies should be destroyed before they destroy them…I agree.

erm… no… they believe these kids’ souls are at stake. And that these kids should sooner lay down their lives than compromise their faith… you make it sound like the kids were encuraged to go out and beat others up or go bomb someone… That’s not what I saw… not that I liked what I saw mind you… but you’re actually exadurating what was there. Sure there was allot of “satan’s army” and other “warnings” about who not to listen to and who not to trust… but that goes without saying.

And guess what…when you believe something that extreme and dire, you teach extreme.

Try “you teach what you believe”… and then we’re on the same page.

You make it sound like we’re missing something.

well you seemed to have missed my point… since you are agreeing with me, yet arguing as though we had some sort of disagreement.

And I stick to what I said previously…if these folks were Islamic in America, they would be shut down and their leaders would be sitting in Guantanamo.

Maybe so… but what are you suggesting? that they cut muslims some slack or that we throw these people in Guantanamo too?

I’m constantly surprised by how cruel humans can be… and what cruelty they wish on those they dislike. So i’m not even going to guess what your answer would be.

[Jayson]

Maybe those christians don’t believe in hell?

If you wrote this in seriousness to me writing:

There are several million Christians world wide that aren’t teaching their kids like this

Then you cause me to question just how many Christians you have been exposed to in your life.

Aside from this, that contradicts your original point as your original point mixed with this point would suggest that people that don’t believe in hell wouldn’t teach their children this way, and yet we have very clear opposing examples of this.

There’s a reason we don’t like people teaching children by methods of hate.

[Mad_Man_P]

straw man…

Are you even adressing me stumpy? did you even bother reading any of my posts?

[Jayson]

Nah, I click on postreply with out any understanding as to why I clicked anything.
Didn’t you read my signature?

And that wasn’t a straw man; that was a direct point to why I made this thread.
So if you think I’m straw manning by reiterating my reasons for opening this thread, then you indeed have a strange interpretation of the term.

The problem here is WHAT these people believe… NOT how they are treating their kids.

There are several million Christians world wide that aren’t teaching their kids like this

Maybe those christians don’t believe in hell?

The Christians that don’t teach the way that these people teach their children, are Christians that don’t believe in hell.
Otherwise, what the hell was the point of bringing up Christians that don’t believe in hell?

I am addressing you.
Your posit is breaking down when I combine it with something you already agree to.

That Christians that don’t believe in hell, don’t teach their children this way.
That’s what you posited as well, because that’s what I was talking about when I said that Christians believe many things these people believe and don’t teach their children this way.

Now, according to the point that Christians that don’t believe in hell don’t teach their children this way, then by all means people of any kind that don’t believe in a religious, or non-religious, affliction scare tactic, like hell for Christians, should not teach their children this way.

However, we know that’s not true.

Therefore, these people are wrong because they teach with hate, not because of what they believe, but how they believe it.

Like I said, there’s a reason we don’t like people teaching children by methods of hate.

[Mad_Man_P]

@TheStumps

Nah, I click on postreply with out any understanding as to why I clicked anything.
Didn’t you read my signature?

And that wasn’t a straw man; that was a direct point to why I made this thread.
So if you think I’m straw manning by reiterating my reasons for opening this thread, then you indeed have a strange interpretation of the term.

The problem here is WHAT these people believe… NOT how they are treating their kids.

There are several million Christians world wide that aren’t teaching their kids like this

Maybe those christians don’t believe in hell?

The Christians that don’t teach the way that these people teach their children, are Christians that don’t believe in hell.
Otherwise, what the hell was the point of bringing up Christians that don’t believe in hell?

I wasn’t saying anything about “christians that don’t believe in hell”… I was making a point about how various christians believe in various things. Look at creationism… I mean… Not all christians believe this. But some do… Not all christians believe in hell… some do… not all chrsitians believe there is a devil… some do… my point was that there are many many versions of christianity… THIS perticular version is not the mainstream… thankfully… but aside from a real fear of hell, temptation and warlocks, there isn’t all that much of a difference, either.

What does “the way” they teach their children mean anyway? Nothing is more inductrinating than a parent who believes the fearful shit that pastor was preaching… you think one week in that JC camp fucked those kids up? I think their parents did that long before they took em to that camp. The camp was just a place for those kids to make friends among like mind-fuck-ed kids.

I said that Christians believe many things these people believe and don’t teach their children this way.

Dude I’ve heard of christian pornstars who believe it’s a sin to have sex out of wedlock… I mean… some people just pay lipservice to their “faith”… Let’s not confuse these people with those who “believe” stuff they don’t act on. These are obviously the type who act on their beliefs.

Now, according to the point that Christians that don’t believe in hell don’t teach their children this way, then by all means people of any kind that don’t believe in a religious, or non-religious, affliction scare tactic, like hell for Christians, should not teach their children this way.

I didn’t even say anything remotely like that… hence… straw man.

These people are wrong because they teach with hate, not because of what they believe, but how they believe it.

HOW they believe it? you mean with conviction? that they actually act on their beliefs?

Like I said, there’s a reason we don’t like people teaching children by methods of hate.

There’s also a reason delusionals arn’t fit for parenting…

[Oughtist]

The sad irony is that half these kids will turn into meth puffin’ death-metal freaks (the scary ones, not the cool ones) once they hit adolescence and are sufficiently disillusioned by the vacuity of their childhood formations.

[felix_dakat]

@Mad Man P

C’mon guys! This isn’t rocket science… put yourself in their shoes for a second… in no way are they crossing any kind of line with these kids. They don’t mean them harm… nor are they using the kids to harm others. They are trying to make sure the kids don’t end up in hell… for ETERNITY… Which they would if they got duped by some atheist or muslim or anyone else who would try to challange their faith.

The problem here is WHAT these people believe… NOT how they are treating their kids.

We’d all be treating our kids the exact same way, if we believed what they do!

Anyone who says different is either a callous monster or full of shit.

So you don’t think haranging young children is a problem? You don’t think yelling at children and shaming them in front of their peers is abusive? You think coercing children into speaking gibberish is acceptable? You think those were acceptable teaching methods? If so, hopefully you don’t work with or around children.

[Jayson]

Maddy…

Let’s clear the air then, since I wasn’t attempting to straw man anything; I just took what you said and combined them together and it seemed to be saying something strange to me.

At any rate.

Let’s be blunt.

1. Do you think what they were doing is wrong?

2. Do you think it is because they are Christian that causes this behavior?

[Mad_Man_P]

@felix dakat

So you don’t think haranging young children is a problem? You don’t think yelling at children and shaming them in front of their peers is abusive? You think coercing children into speaking gibberish is acceptable? You think those were acceptable teaching methods? If so, hopefully you don’t work with or around children.

I think my french teacher did all those things… she might have made us speak french, but it was all gibberish to me… and boy did she tear us a new one if we were late for class… in front of everyone!