Well stumpy… If you’re ever confused about something I said, ask and I’ll gladly explain myself.
alrighty
Yes… but only because I think the things they believe are wrong.
That’s like asking if I think the Nazies were politically motivated… I’d have to say yes… but that dosn’t mean everyone who is politically motivated is going to act like a nazi.
Not all christians believe the same stuff… hell most of them are the kind who only pay lipservice to their “beliefs”, whatever they may be… but yes… I think these people’s belief is causing their behavior… and furthermore I think their behavior is justified GIVEN what they believ… but given their beliefs are false, what they are doing is extreamly harmful… and since I don’t believe their crackpot claims, I think they should be stopped.
Mad Man:
I think it stands to reason that regardless of whether you consider what they believe, or I consider how they teach what they believe, that we are essentially disliking the same thing: Conquest through hate.
I’m not sure we can agree on what was seen in that video. You seem to have seen more hate than I did. I saw allot of fearful crap which, as yoda would say, sometimes leads to hate…
What got to me was WHAT those kids were being taught to believe. That whole hermetically sealed belief system, that serves to alienate these kids from other kids their age, or even anyone of a different faith, which resists all reason, all doubt and any kind of critical thought. Basically the same sick “faith” that their parents had was being passed down to these kids.
And I don’t think it happened at that camp either… I think it started at home. I doubt making rules that prevent such camps from existing would keep people with dumb ass beliefs from passing their dumb ass beliefs down to their kids.
If you get my point, and I get yours, that perhaps is all we can accomplish here. I agree with you that the “theology” of the preachers in the video is messed up. Where I think we disagree is that you think that their beliefs represent Christianity as a totality. I don’t think it does. Then too, you only have a problem with their beliefs, not with their practices, whereas, I have a problem with both.
To be honest, that seems to be a common thread in American Christianity, and I’ve never figured out why.
Most don’t take it to the extreme that these folks are taking (parents included).
But, I recall easily being a kid and (remember, I grew up Protestant) being told in a variety of ways a general notion that Christians aren’t generally liked and are oppressed.
I never quite understood this…and I still don’t.
Because, in America at least, if you want to run for political office, it’s a safe bet to mention that you are Christian.
That’s not oppression…that’s popularity.
Personally, I never felt it because I was white, lived in a 2 story middle class house, my parents made over 50k a year combined, most of the members of the Christian churches that were part of the “Christian Alliance” (just a way of saying we share events and outings together) had, between them all, pretty much every kid that was on the various jock teams, and scholastic teams…the typical popular crews of school-life.
In the adult world…most of the main owners of land were elders of the various Churches in the town.
So…oppression seemed to be a very stupid tangent, and personally, I think it still is a stupid tangent for American Christianity.
I think that’s why this group had to insist that other Christians were even evil and lazy, because otherwise they wouldn’t have anything to be oppressed by really.
The problem felix, is that you’re not hearing me… I don’t think that their beliefs represent christianity as a totality… I don’t think any belief reprisents christianity as a totality, because there are so many versions of it. Also I do have a problem with their practices… but what I am saying is that I wouldn’t have a problem with their practices IF I didn’t have a problem with their beliefs.
Stumpy
Well you have to admit, that while it might be cool to SAY your christian, hell even be popular to believe in God, if you actually tried to act all saintly and be the perfect christian people would feel uncomfortable around you, and even tease you for it. Imagine Jesus was your friend, following you around to parties and hanging out with you and your friends… feeling the need to preach to you about the sinfulness of your ways whenever you strayed from the “path”. He’s not a “bad” guy… he just wouldn’t be all that welcome, I imagine. I suppose that’s a kind of opression… maybe that’s what they mean?
To be perfectly honest I really don’t know why christians think they are opressed either… I’m just guessing here.
But I can imagine it would be very hard to be a good christian in the modern world without having to face allot of various temptations and exclusion from allot of events… hard to convince someone to give up an interresting night life in favor of a made up belief… so it’s not totaly false to say that it’s an uphill battle… and even say the cause is other people, since WE made the world what it is.
It’s not hard to be a Christian in the modern world.
Being a Christian doesn’t mean constantly preaching.
The only reason Jesus was preaching was because that’s what he came about to do.
There are crap loads of very devout Christians that aren’t finding it difficult to be one.
You don’t walk around shoving it down everyone’s throats; you just live it.
So that excuse fails immediately.
The same could be said for any religion; if you walk around blabbing about it all the fricken time…people get annoyed.
Actually, that’s true for anything.
What most mean when they say oppressed, is that Christianity doesn’t have open rule over the rules of society.
Personally, that’s just laughable.
If people really want that, then we need to just make a new island somewhere (man made even, I don’t care) call it New Jerusalem if you want to, and say that it’s dedicated for Christians everywhere.
Like we did with Israel after WWII.
Except this time, Christians instead of Jews.
Everything will be ran under Christian law and a Christian government.
Have fun!
It’s your PERSONAL (emotional) problem.
But you try to see your (victim-mentality) reaction to your personal (emotional) problem as if it’s logical, objective, and thus something everyone should obey.
In other words, you don’t want to see your personal (and rather mechanical) reaction “as is”. You want to pretend it’s objective and you want others to agree, follow, and obey to the robotic reaction.
I’d say that this kind of tendency is commonly observed among people with victim mentality.
Sure. I feel it’s an ugly video in the sense that the people, both adults and kids in the video, appear somewhat sick and ugly to my PERSONAL taste.
At the same time, I feel your robotic reaction from victim mentality is ugly and silly, as well.
But that’s my personal feeling and I don’t advocate harming you or these fanatic people just because of my personal taste.
I’d say psychological violence done by parents with victim mentality can be damaging for kids.
Look at middle east, both Jews and Arabs are playing the role of poor victim.
And Americans are following the trend, as well.
Unless more people learns about the silliness and consequences of victim mentality, we will continue to see this tendency passed from one generation to the next, and this mentality would be exploited by political, religious, and other manipulators to mobilize people into mass (and/or sporadic) hysteria, again and again.
Yep. You are scared for your kids, wife, but possibly more for your own feeling, the sense of loss or just being hurt, I think.
And when you are scared, you think you are justified to attack the enemy that scared you, and you think others should follow/obey you in doing so.
Now, if we have two person with different personal taste (and/or sensitivity for fear) think with victim mentality, we can expect shitty fight like we see in the middle east.
As long as they are happily killing each other, it’s all right (to certain degree…)
Unfortunately, as we can see in this thread (and in the video), a person with victim mentality tends and tries to justify their PERSONAL view as if it’s objective, and use legal, physical, and other means to exploit other people for their emotional benefit.
Then we agree regarding their beliefs but disagree about the practices, because I would have a problem with the practices in the service of different beliefs as well.
I’ll iterate again…Christianity inherently is not at fault. It’s the people who misrepresent and inflict their own ideologies on what they think God wants for us. Those who infuse their doctrinal beliefs with their interpretive understanding of the Bible, will weaken the Christian base.
Those who want to listen and believe in God will. It is not a compulsory to believe in God, yet Christians are admonished to spread God’s Word. There will be some who will effect a questionable representation due to their interpolative reasoning of that Word. People must act and pray closely with God’s Word while being agents for the Lord. One’s ego must not usurp Jesus’ teachings. Unfortunately, there are going to be those who will adventitiously misjudge what they believe to be true. That will be the one’s that will come to the lime light, not the one’s who represent God correctly.
All I’ve seen is negative aspects of Christianity being displayed here at ILP. I’m sure that is what will be reinforced in future posts here. That is to be expected since Jesus Himself told others this would happen if they follow in His foosteps. I think it is stated in the Book of Revelations there will be a move away from God in the last days and Christians will be villified as satan’s grip grows stronger on humanity. I think this will stem from confusion by some people’s discontent with how religion is being misrepresented by those who feel it needs to ran a certain way. If this is how it all goes down, then so be it.
Dependsh, I shupposhe. I hope to represhent a counter-shectarian represhentashion of who I pretend to be. But ya, granted, itch a shlippery shlope to shushtain tracshun on… Anyshing in particular that would dishqualify the ushefullnesh of my partishipashion?
“Christianity” is spread thin among a variety of different beliefs and understandings of the bible to such a degree that it’s nearly lost all distinctiveness… it’s hard to fault something that isn’t really ONE thing…
yet, I can fault christianity for being irrational in the same way that I can fault these people for being irrational simply on the basis that they requires that you believe things on insufficient evidence and with poor reasons. Because that’s what they all have in common. And passing down their irrational beliefs to their children is also quite a common practice among the vast majority of christians.
I couldn’t agree more… and I’d do you one better and say the people who dreamed up this God character likely had him represent THEIR ideologies and THIER desires for society.
I suppose you differ in that you actually know how the bible is to be understood?
or is humility the key? The understanding that no one understands?
I think what the people in that video believ is no more nor less “religion” than what the “harmless” christians believ… and no more nor less irrational. The difference is in the consequences of their beliefs… but since we can’t argue from consequence (it being a fallacy and all), it seems reasonable for me to fault religion in general as providing people a ligitimate excuse to be irrational via “faith”.
Of course kids don’t have choices they are idiots, so legally responsibility is abrogated to the parents, unfortunately in some cases the parents are idiots too. The question is when does the parents ideology become harmful to a child, and at which point should the state intervene? Or should it?
Before anyone says my kids aren’t idiots! I don’t care, good luck to you and Solomon.
