Could this quote from ‘Hamlet’ be considered an ode to nihilistic despair from a philosophical point of view?
To be or not to be, that is the question;
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them. To die, to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to — 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep;
To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life,
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th’oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of dispriz’d love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th’unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.
I would have to say the latter would fit the nihilist view better. The former would seem the fit the moralist the best. Due to the fact that conscience would be a restraint of free thought in a nihilist’s view.
I’m not quite sure a true nihilist has much interest for the future. Consequences doesn’t seem to be a concern for them. It is very possible I am mistaken in this matter. ‘Future and Progress’ appear to be dichotomies for their thinking. Upon more reflection, that quote from Hamlet seems to have the appearance of someone teetering on the edge of sanity. Whereas there is a need for order of thought, but an apathetic reasoning overrides it.
Has there ever been a “true” nihilist? Given most text book definitions of a nihilist, you’d think upon adopting the philosophy, they’d be dead within five minutes.
That seems to be a good deduction. I doubt ‘textbook’ nihilists exists like for example a ‘textbook’ Christian doesn’t exist. If either of the two groups were to meet from this forum with their perspective types, they would most likely just see everyday ordinary people. Likewise, if both groups met and talked with one another, the same would occur.
We may label ourselves in these groups, but I would guess if we met collectively…we would just be people.
The ‘depth’ factor makes good sense. Nihilism, when discussed by a nihilist means they are giving meaning to something that doesn’t beg for explanation. Therefore, negating itself. A bit of a paradox, tied up in a conumdrum in esoteric wrappings.
I’m here to say though if people find comfort in that sort of resolve, then they should practice that affectation if it helps them in dealing with life. I personally don’t agree with that thought for I believe we are morally obligated to be as happy and productive as possible. I know I’m viewed as an irrational person here too by some, but such is life.
To answer the OP bluntly, yes, it can and should be considered an ode to nihilistic despair. I don’t see the harm in viewing the message of the poem in that way…
Nihilists make great poets–but so do existentialists, moralists (in the arena of spiritual/religious doctrines), and especially idealists.
What if we throw out the ‘-ists’ and ‘-isms’ and just ponder these kinds of messages. Are they poetics or philosophies? Are they fiction or non-fiction? When the lines are blurred between the two, what then is really happening?
From personal experience, nihilistic thought destroys concepts of ‘future’ and ‘progress’ and diverts all attention to the now, the present situation. Namely, that situation is one of immediate despair. How can a nihilist live, let alone survive, when all meaning is lost and destroyed through infinite regress?
‘Future’ and ‘progress’ then have little or no relevance to nihilistic philosophy, unless there is a solution–and there is one!
Let’s assume that there is no inherent meaning behind survival-itself, that to survive requires no meaning nor consciousness of any possible meaning. Then, that creates a paradox of living for the nihilist to continue living. From that can arise ‘futures’ and ‘progressions’, but they are built on the paradox itself.
To continue in this philosophy would require great care and thought lest the nihilist loses identity as a ‘nihilist’. (which is actually fine, since why would it matter anyway to him/her?)
You’re right; I believe a “true” or “pure” nihilistic would die, since the emotional drives that brought him/her to the point of suicide would immediately push the true nihilist over the edge. There should be no fear or restraint even in the face of death, but it is our natural reaction to cower from or fight in the face of death. Why or how can a nihilist live when utter meaninglessness is realized? He/she must divert from self-destruction, but how and why?
It comes down to an issue of survival–ultimately one that doesn’t even matter in the first place (according to the ideological principles of description already put into play).
This is why I would say that Aidan’s position is truly unique among a community of philosophers.
For the most part, you’re right. In the end, we’re just people–nothing real special outside of our minute differences/similarities. However, there will be arguments and sparks in combining certain ideologies together.
The people best fit for these situations are described as “open-minded”.
Hey there Real. All of your above responses were very good. I want you to know my discussions on this topic was not meant as an attack on people who can associate with nihilism. The first few lines in that ode from Hamlet popped into my head and I decided to read it through again. Then it struck me, perhaps the verses of that ode may be what people with nihilistic tendencies deal with. Vacillating thoughts of dealing with the world and what is viewed as ‘paradoxes’ within it. I’m going to make an uneducated guess that this could be a form of depression. Sort of a melancholia laced with a despondent reason for carrying on.
You know, you did say in another of your posts in the ‘Mundane Babble’ folder you wanted to be challenged. This was my little contribution to it. Pointing out nihilism through an ode.
I know you are just making light with that assessment. As gruff as Aidan’s ILP persona may be, he would probably have a unique perspective I would like to hear first hand. If that persona would go beyond this discussion board, that would make it even more enticing for a face to face meeting. Not to mention other people here I would like to meet.
I think that’s a view of someone who didn’t actually destroy “all” meanings and values, yet.
If all meanings were actually gone, there is no meaning in any action, including suiciding (as you suggest, later).
It induces absolute lack of any motivation based upon logical conviction/evaluation … so to say.
But in the reality, some (or many, or even most) of unconscious “values” remain there, and you get driven by them.
I don’t think you saw that meaninglessness of your inclination toward having some meaning in something, at that time.
When you are brought up with too much enphasise upon being positive and meaningfull in your action, you get brainwashed as if something meaningless MUST NOT exist, without being aware.
This brings up the idea of suiciding when you bacome aware of total meaninglessness.
I had that, too.
But if the mind is clear enough, you would have seen the meaninglessness of this delusion, and it’s gone as soon as you become aware.
And you are left on the neutral ground, as far as "to be or not to be " decision making is concerned.
Although meaningless, the remaining components of human monkey, namely basic needs, will keep you eating, sleeping, and so on.
So, there is no need to “survive”.
It’s a bit like trees and flowes. They don’t need any “meaning” sort of delusions to live and die.
But this only happens if we continued to destroy all remaining subconscious “valuing” and “meaning”.
When you stop halfway, just seeing the surface values of your mental frame gone, you can get scared and feel very unsafe.
If the encounter and the destruction happens in much greater magnitude, there is “no time” to be scared.
It happens so suddenly that there is not even a choice of returning. Big chunk of “you” are gone.
The meanings and values are all gone, and it’s simply impossible to go back because you would have seen the utter absurdity of taking these arbitrary and often stupid “meanings” and “values” seriously.
Actually, it feels pretty good to have no bullshit “meanings”, “values”, “obligations”, “morals”, and such dictating and shoving you around.
You know you are completely free, without any doubt.
I know it scares “moral” oriented people when I say these, because the lack of moral is equal to criminal tendency in the mind of some of them.
What actually happens is like this. When the all valueing structure of conscious mind is gone, remainning subconscious mental frame and natural desires and emotions will surface and drive the life, while they get destroyed in turn.
And what a person would do depends on that remaining part.
Unless you have lots of compressed unsatisfied funny desires in your subconscious mind, you woudn’t start doing funky things.
Those “moral” oriented people are actually scared because they tend to have more oppressed and hidden emotion and desires, and they can feel what would happen to them (although not fully aware), most probably.
But that’s their problem/fear and not mine to have accumulated so much hidden kinky desires.
It’s not really a solution, but simply the result of destuction, I would say.
To call it a solution, you are possibly still looking things from the positively skewed subconscious mental frame.
Even if someone suicided because of the half hearted encounter with the nothingness, what’s wrong with it?
Not a big deal if that’s what he desired.
Well, I always felt the totally care free attitude was the mark of destruction of the meanings and values.
Yet I guess it’s wise to live your desires, honestry and fully, before this happens, if possible.
Otherwise they will surface and they might drive you nuts.
Maybe I was lucky to have lived somewhat sane childhood and I didn’t have much surppressed desires when it happend.
But it’s true that it still required lots of further destruction of remaining stupidities placed by parents and educations.
And it still continues after many years. Honestly I didn’t think I would live this long. I thought I would be dead within several years when it happened.
And finally, I never thought myself as a nihilist. I still don’t consider myself as one.
But the way I see things seems to be similar to the description of nihilist.
Possibly, what differentiate me fom “nihilist philosopher” type person can be the fact that I had the sudden and big encounter with the nothingness rather than slowly arrived at the conclusion by timid thought process.
The destuction of values and meanings was swift and huge, although now I know that it wasn’t as total as I had thought, at first.
Also, I do not percieve this nothingness as something external or foreign to me.
Somehow, I (or whatever that is aware) takes the nothingness as the core, or the essence of myself (or whatever that is aware), and all other existence like universe and remaining human components as of secondary and peripheric.
So, naturally, the void or nothingness isn’t scary for me, at all. I’m totally at ease and at home.
In other words, the awareness (of mine) seems to identify itself as the void, nothingness, although it’s a bit odd.
All of your above responses were very good. I want you to know my discussions on this topic was not meant as an attack on people who can associate with nihilism. The first few lines in that ode from Hamlet popped into my head and I decided to read it through again. Then it struck me, perhaps the verses of that ode may be what people with nihilistic tendencies deal with. Vacillating thoughts of dealing with the world and what is viewed as ‘paradoxes’ within it. I’m going to make an uneducated guess that this could be a form of depression. Sort of a melancholia laced with a despondent reason for carrying on.
