what's wrong with prostitution, pornography, casual sex?

Faust,

Hah! You’re right, I did make it sound like that last quote was yours. My apologies.

And yes, you’re right, there are millions of morons who believe that. I’d just hope most, or all, of us at ILP are beyond that.

There are also millions of morons who disagree with evolution. Very few on ILP, though, so I generally feel free to start with principles of evolutionary psychology, for example, and go from there, without the need to justify evolution in the first place.

Well, I disagree with this. I think most absolutist statements about sex end up being wrong, with claims of “sex is all cultural and need have no emotional impact whatsoever” being equally idiotic to claims that sex is inherently sinful.

In the context of regular psychology and evolutionary psychology, there is every reason why a raped woman would feel damaged. There is every reason why a woman who had completely causal sex may (depending on the woman, or even the man) feel damaged (although of course to a lesser degree than the raped woman). There are psychological constants that are evolutionary adaptations to our ancestral environments, and since sex is one of the most important things in our lives, it is naive to imagine that the only evolved instinct or evolved emotional response we have regarding sex is a desire for it. Clearly there is more going on than that.

Do you even know what [sin] means Twiffy? Maybe you should go ask some Christians…

That’s not really a problem though, that’s a good thing. We are free to create our own moralities. We are the source of all morality.

I would give up math before I gave up sex. I would have a harder time giving up literature / art.

Of course you would. So would most individuals. And for most individuals, this is the right choice, the choice that would make their lives happier.

But if the WORLD had to make that choice, in the way that I specified, the right choice is clear, and it isn’t sex.

If there were no math, there would be no global warming…

Twiff - I didn’t mean to say that sex is cultural - that would be idiotic indeed. I mean that most consentual, adult sex is not harmful in any way. I am of course not talking about rape. There is no reason to use exceptional cases as the baseline. But that is what we often do. How you can slide so easily from rape to casual sex I do not know.

Sex is one of the most important things in our lives if we make it so. It’s really just sex.

Yes, history shows us that it is in fact a very, very large problem. Christianity was the answer to Polytheism.

When we become our own gods, bad things happen (comparatively-speaking), very, very bad things.

Men like Hitler and Bush start showing up (as an example). Corruption occurs. Tyranny occurs.

Who is this “we” you are referring to??? Are you saying that I am God? Tell me.

We is each existing individual. And no, none of us are Gods. There is no God.

So you believe women are [individuals]?

And they are inherently-responsible for their own actions?

Then why do women ever have abortions or men ever murder other people?

Tell me.

Well I don’t think abortions are a bad thing so I will ignore that.

Men murder other people for many reasons. There is not just one reason.

You cannot ignore it. Women are individuals, as you stated, remember?

If you ignore this further, then I win this argument. Why do women have abortions?

Your question doesn’t make any sense to me. Women have abortions for many different reasons. What are you trying to imply?

I see, I was taking your statement in a way other than it was intended. I completely agree with your statement now that (I believe) I am taking it correctly.

Indeed.

Up to the present moment, I haven’t understood why the absence of believe in God or in absolute moral codes should prevent us from seeing some things as adequate (‘good’) and other things as inadequate (‘bad’). In the end, isn’t everything a matter of personal choices and personal beliefs? There is no moral relativism that can oblige me to accept the abuse of children and/or women as something harmless and fair. Pornography doesn’t necessarily do that, but it can give us the impression that women exist only to be sexually abused, and that it’s pretty acceptable to desire pretty young girls when all one needs to do in life is finding a source of sexual pleasure.

Sex is a natural thing, but the way it is portrayed today it’s like life was reduced to it.

Again, I am not a pseudo-moralist, it’s just the exaggeration and the banalization of sex nowadays that bothers me.

I know.

I know why men murder. I understand.

So, tell me just one “reason” that women have abortions. Just give me one, any one.

Let us follow this stream to the ocean and find out.

Ok. Some women have abortions because they don’t want to carry a fetus in their body for 8 or 9 months. So?

Well said. Couldn’t agree more.

So women are responsible for their actions.

And if you consider that women don’t want their unborn children to live, then you can easily compare it to the fact that men don’t want some other people to live. This is a moral qualification of responsibility. In other words, Radiohead629, you are saying this: Because I don’t want you around me, I have the right to end your existence (in any shape-or-form). Thus, women are murderers (if you consider abortion murder, or not). And men are murderers.

This is by your reasoning Radiohead629, not mine. Explain to me where I may be misreading you, if I am, at all…

  • Responsibility is a whole 'nother can of worms. You have no settled that question yet.
  • I don’t think your argument looks anything like mine. My only claims were as follows:
  1. All morality comes from individually existing subjects and the communities they form.
  2. There is no objective, eternal source of morality.

Those were the only claims I made. I have no affirmed or denied anything else, yet.