yesterday elections

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

It was a good day yesterday.
Every single one of Arnuold
proposition lost yesterday.
Two democrats governors elected.
I hope it finally means
that people are coming to their senses
and driving the GOP and their minions back
under the rock they came from.

The only real blemish was in Texas and gay marriage
will soon be the law of the land because there is no
good reason to ban it.

The only other thing of note is Kansas allowing
ID, (intelligent design) to be taught in schools there.
I say organize a boycott of Kansas.
but no one goes there anyway
and in fact people are leaving Kansas and all
those plain states in droves.

Boycott Kansas
until they decide to join the 20th century.
because they have certainly abandoned the 21st century.

Kropotkin

2

Ok, do you have a position other than the Democratic party line? I know what that is, for the most part, and would like to hear something original. You almost got there with the “Boycott Kansas” trick, but that’s too practiced. Having had my state boycotted, I can tell you that it’s ridiculous. Kansas doesn’t get a lot of tourism as it is. Let them have the few things they do get. It may be their decision to mention intelligent design in schools, but what do you think those kids are going to get at home? You think they will just hear repeated there what they heard at school? No. Their not being brainwashed.

I’m all for spouting political ideas and sticking close to your political allegiances but come on, put a valiant effort into defending your claims. Make me fight your ideas, not roll my eyes.

3

I only deal with ideas after 10 in the morning,
here I was simply passing on news.
a few more Dr. peppers and I shall be able to function.
caffeine, caffeine, caffeine.
In my book its all about… the caffeine.

Kropotkin

4

In other words

“I don’t have a defence of this argument because I’m only repeating the Democrat propaganda with which I’ve been indoctrinated”

Tell you what, PK, what don’t you explain what is so wrong with Intelligent Design Theory? Why shouldn’t children be given the choice of different theories about our origins when scientifically we’ve got very little idea whatsoever? Are you against children being taught diverse ideas? Should they just be taught stuff that coincides with your views?

That’s what you seem to be saying with all your ‘boycott Kansas’ nonsense. If only you could see how truly illiberal and statist you were being, you’d understand so much more. As it is you are no better informed than that idiot who was running around quoting Rage Against the Machine lyrics right left and centre…

5

Peter Kropotkin:It was a good day yesterday.
Every single one of Arnuold
proposition lost yesterday.
Two democrats governors elected.
I hope it finally means
that people are coming to their senses
and driving the GOP and their minions back
under the rock they came from.
The only real blemish was in Texas and gay marriage
will soon be the law of the land because there is no
good reason to ban it.
The only other thing of note is Kansas allowing
ID, (intelligent design) to be taught in schools there.
I say organize a boycott of Kansas.
but no one goes there anyway
and in fact people are leaving Kansas and all
those plain states in droves.
Boycott Kansas
until they decide to join the 20th century.
because they have certainly abandoned the 21st century.

SD: Ok, do you have a position other than the Democratic party line? I know what that is, for the most part, and would like to hear something original. You almost got there with the “Boycott Kansas” trick, but that’s too practiced. Having had my state boycotted, I can tell you that it’s ridiculous. Kansas doesn’t get a lot of tourism as it is. Let them have the few things they do get. It may be their decision to mention intelligent design in schools, but what do you think those kids are going to get at home? You think they will just hear repeated there what they heard at school? No. Their not being brainwashed.
I’m all for spouting political ideas and sticking close to your political allegiances but come on, put a valiant effort into defending your claims. Make me fight your ideas, not roll my eyes.

K: Actually if you look, even asleep, I did throw out a couple of
idea’s. One of which you touched on, ID, another is gay marriage,
a third is the loss of people out of the plain states and why.
A fourth is why did the tide begin to turn from conservatives
idea’s to more liberal idea’s, here in California, a proposition failed
about parental notification for minors about abortion.
Another sign people actually are in favor of abortion and
laws supporting abortion rights.
But hay, if you say there are no idea’s here, feel free.
It is still only 9:52 here, and I have one or two more
caffeine fixes to go.

Kropotkin

6

someoneisatthedoorf:“In other words
I don’t have a defence of this argument because I’m only repeating the Democrat propaganda with which I’ve been indoctrinated”
Tell you what, PK, what don’t you explain what is so wrong with Intelligent Design Theory? Why shouldn’t children be given the choice of different theories about our origins when scientifically we’ve got very little idea whatsoever? Are you against children being taught diverse ideas? Should they just be taught stuff that coincides with your views?
That’s what you seem to be saying with all your ‘boycott Kansas’ nonsense. If only you could see how truly illiberal and statist you were being, you’d understand so much more. As it is you are no better informed than that idiot who was running around quoting Rage Against the Machine lyrics right left and centre…

K: Several bits here. Let me go in some order.
First of all, I am a democrat because I understand and
approve of the idea’s and ideal’s of the democratic party.
There is a very old joke about democrats floating about,
It goes like this " I don’t belong to any organize party,
… I’m a democrat" We tend to march to our own drummer.

Ah, ID. Love to talk about ID. First of all, it is not a science.
It was started in 1992, and the key and only point it offers
is religious, there is a god who started the whole thing.
That’s it, that ID. There is nothing else to it.
No science, no theories, no evidence, no scientific papers
written supporting it, no attempt at anything remotely scientific
about those who support ID except that god started it all.
If it was a scientific theory instead of religion disguised as theory,
I would support it. If you want to talk about religion in schools,
I am actually ok with it, as long as you give equal time
to buddhism and hinduism, and Jainism and the native American
religions and all the other religions and say more then once,
they all have equal value as christianity. They all claim to have
the truth. Give equal time to all the other religions that claim
to have a theory about how the universe started, will get my vote.
But equal time for all or no time for any such religious nonsense.

As far as my boycott of Kansas goes,
I thought you understood satire, my bad.

Kropotkin

7

Okay, I’ll give you a little here. You mentioned gay marriage, which is party line. And I would agree that gay marriage has very little opposition that is not based in religious roots.

ID, we are already disputing. Its being taught there. So what? A good majority of Kansas is already pretty dogmatically centered. So the ones who get taught evolution but hear about ID, will probably get the evolutionist view reinforced at home. The others will have their ID or creationist view reinforced at home. I doubt that school will corrupt either to a significant degree.

I’ll skip to four, because I want to spend some time with three. I’d say that the bill getting shot down is more about privacy than abortion. But that would be me. That bill, in my eyes, would be voted against merely for that reason, no other. I’m sure many people saw it that way. That’s not a subject that’s going to be easily defined on party abortion lines. Some Republicans are pro-privacy. And that’s why they’d vote against it. Certain parts of Cali are more Democrat and others are more Republican. Just like every state. Now, the real question is how will the Democrats who were elceted actually perform?

And three. Good old three. Technically, I live in one of the “plains” states. And we have an incrdible amount of people moving to our state. Too many of you(Californians) are moving here in fact. Kansas and Nebraska have problems with losing people because their economies are suffering right now. A fact that would exist no matter what else was going on. Their economies swing every once in a while. Being a heavy grain producing state, that happens. But, to make the broad statement that "people are leaving Kansas and all those plain states in droves. " is quite a bit of exaggeration. And did you expect different from them. Do you expect radical, liberal, and life changing ideas to come from states who live on farming. They like being conservative for the most part. That supports their way of life. Continuing doing what their doing has worked so far.

And 9:52? C’mon. I’m one hour ahead of you and i’ve been up and thinking since 630am here. It’s not that hard. And I don’t even drink caffeine. My brain is thinking by 6 ro 7 on weekdays without the use of stimulants. Not much of an argument. And what I meant is that pretty much all of your arguments I could have read on the party line without much effort on my part. I’m asking for you to debate with the logic and rationale that made you a part of that ideology and support your beliefs with evidence. That evidence need only be well-thought out arguments, I’m not looking for you to dig up research finding or anything.

8

Hello F(r)iends,

A good day for California? I think not.

It is a damn shame that unions will steal money from their employees and force them to give it to a political group that the employee potentially does not agree with!

It is a damn shame that a teacher can get tenure, TENURE! after only two years. These fuck teachers can sit back and have job security for the rest of their lives after just two years. Even the President is up for a job review every four years; god forbid that a teacher can be fired.

A good day, sure. If you define good as terrible.

-Thirst

9

K: Actually if you look, even asleep, I did throw out a couple of
idea’s. One of which you touched on, ID, another is gay marriage,
a third is the loss of people out of the plain states and why.
A fourth is why did the tide begin to turn from conservatives
idea’s to more liberal idea’s, here in California, a proposition failed
about parental notification for minors about abortion.
Another sign people actually are in favor of abortion and
laws supporting abortion rights.
But hay, if you say there are no idea’s here, feel free.
It is still only 9:52 here, and I have one or two more
caffeine fixes to go.

SD: Okay, I’ll give you a little here. You mentioned gay marriage, which is party line. And I would agree that gay marriage has very little opposition that is not based in religious roots.

ID, we are already disputing. Its being taught there. So what? A good majority of Kansas is already pretty dogmatically centered. So the ones who get taught evolution but hear about ID, will probably get the evolutionist view reinforced at home. The others will have their ID or creationist view reinforced at home. I doubt that school will corrupt either to a significant degree.

K: and I wrote a bit to somewhere about ID,

SD: I’ll skip to four, because I want to spend some time with three. I’d say that the bill getting shot down is more about privacy than abortion. But that would be me. That bill, in my eyes, would be voted against merely for that reason, no other. I’m sure many people saw it that way. That’s not a subject that’s going to be easily defined on party abortion lines. Some Republicans are pro-privacy. And that’s why they’d vote against it. Certain parts of Cali are more Democrat and others are more Republican. Just like every state. Now, the real question is how will the Democrats who were elected actually perform?

K: California is a very “blue” state. We oppose any thought of banning
abortion. It is very clear from the polling, the opposition to this
proposition was not privacy driven, but abortion driven.
Some GOP is pro-abortion especially here. I have friends, stock
brokers type, who are are very conservative in regards to
financial matters and are socially liberal. That is very,
very common here within the GOP. That is why arnie is, was,
so popular, fisically conservative and socially liberal, that
is practically the mantra of the republican party out here.
No one was elected here, just propositions.

SD: And three. Good old three. Technically, I live in one of the “plains” states. And we have an incrdible amount of people moving to our state. Too many of you(Californians) are moving here in fact. Kansas and Nebraska have problems with losing people because their economies are suffering right now. A fact that would exist no matter what else was going on. Their economies swing every once in a while. Being a heavy grain producing state, that happens. But, to make the broad statement that "people are leaving Kansas and all those plain states in droves. " is quite a bit of exaggeration. And did you expect different from them. Do you expect radical, liberal, and life changing ideas to come from states who live on farming. They like being conservative for the most part. That supports their way of life. Continuing doing what their doing has worked so far.

K: Did some research on the net and found a map and story
called “sweeping out the plains” the map had all the counties that
had out migrated more then 10% since 1980, and the middle of
the country had an alwful lot of red counties that had
more then 10% loss. Can’t say why people are fleeing,
I haven’t lived out there in over 30 years, I was born in Minnesota.

SD: And 9:52? C’mon. I’m one hour ahead of you and i’ve been up and thinking since 630am here. It’s not that hard. And I don’t even drink caffeine. My brain is thinking by 6 ro 7 on weekdays without the use of stimulants. Not much of an argument. And what I meant is that pretty much all of your arguments I could have read on the party line without much effort on my part. I’m asking for you to debate with the logic and rationale that made you a part of that ideology and support your beliefs with evidence. That evidence need only be well-thought out arguments, I’m not looking for you to dig up research finding or anything.

K: Right now I am on workmen’s comp due to a back injury.
I take several pain pills to sleep and it takes a while to wake up.
As far as an arguments goes, I have thrown out several topics,
pick one and lets go, or you might want to toss one or two out,
and we can have at it. Its your call.

Kropotkin

10

thirst4metal: A good day for California? I think not.

K: ok, its a great day, hay I’m easy.

T4m: It is a damn shame that unions will steal money from their employees and force them to give it to a political group that the employee potentially does not agree with!

K: I will agree with you if you agree that corporations who do
the same thing in regards to stockholders are forbidden also or
must get waivers from every single stockholder for future
political campaigns.

T4M :It is a damn shame that a teacher can get tenure, TENURE! after only two years. These fuck teachers can sit back and have job security for the rest of their lives after just two years. Even the President is up for a job review every four years; god forbid that a teacher can be fired.

K: The real problem was the other stuff within the proposition.
A teacher could be fired within 3 years for no cause, no hearing,
no debate, no alternative hearing, nothing.
Eliminate that little clause and you might get a hearing.
The fact of the matter it was never about improving schools,
it was about the fact arnie has gone to war on the teachers union,
as well as the fire, police and the workers for the state.
It is a civil war going on between the unions and
arnie. This is one war that is going the unions way right now.
This proposition was an attempt to silence teachers. If this
had won, fire and police as well as state workers would have
been next.

T4M: A good day, sure. If you define good as terrible.

K: That is life for you. You say terrible and I say great.
It all depends on what side you are on.
No right, no wrong. just you and me disagreeing.
Who did that song?

anyway, it is a great day.

Kropotkin

11

Yes, that its not scientifically based. Maybe in conceptualization, it was not. What it has taken on is being philosophically based. It argues that by philosophy and some science that the world as it is now, could not have been formed by evolution alone. And there is argument there, but its a sound theory as of now. There are some things that evolution does not explain well. So, it claims that an intelligence must be responsible. It does not say God (note the capital G), merely intelligence. ID, in and of itself, could be claiming that members of an alien race from Alpha Centauri could be responsible for Earth as we know it now. There are implications and connotations surely, but in and of itself, it is no longer religiously biased. it is simply another theory. And like I said, its teaching in school will not significantly impact the people that will hear it.

Not one of my major points, but which is it?

If T4M is any indication, I would disagree. Socially liberal is not a phrase I would use to describe him.

However, polling is a very weak science. Abortion’s status as it may be in Cali, I would have to argue based on what the prop does that some people must have voted against it due to privacy issues. We had something similar here, and it lost. Polling indicated that abortion was a hot topic, but several articles from independent sources found that privacy was more the issue than abortion. Protecting your right to keep information that pertains to you secret was the more driving issue. This is already intrinsically linked to the abortion issue as is, it being somewhat of a privacy issue to begin with.

People are leaving the rural areas of the plains states. They specifically exclude any metro areas from their research. So, are people leaving rural Kanses for Wichita? We don’t know. The net migration out of the state is unknown. Less small farms and less workers on said farms. Yes, rural areas of grain producing states are going to be hit. Rural areas in general are going to be worse off because getting people to come to you with no advertising and potentially very little to offer is difficult. It’s just not financially sound. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand though.

Ahh…painkillers. Ok, let’s try that democrats marching to their own drummer bit. Since when? The democrats have had a pretty solid party line and followed it since the early 80’s. The two parties have changed very little over the last 20 years or so. They’ve taken on new problems in pretty much the way that you’d expect. What interests me is that a lot of democrats are more antirepublican right now than anything. They seem to be fighting the issue while offering no alternatives. And the alternatives I have heard are more socialistic than democratic. So my topic is “Where are all the other drummers?”

12

Dear Peter (if that is your real name),

Precisely my point about you not realising just how middle of the road and ordinary and popular (and un-individual) your political opinions are…

Nor is Relativity, but both are scientific.

Your inability to distinguish ID from creationism is laughable given that you clearly consider yourself qualified to talk on the subject…

How silly of you…

Have you ever read Aristotle? He advocates an idea very, very similar to intelligent design, thus proving that it predates 1992 (in some form or other).

And of course there’s the watchmaker argument, which predates 1992.

You mean how you support Evolutionism, which is religion disguised as science?

Listen, the question and answer has been there for thousands of years. Only a couple of days ago I warned you against over-egging the present but you wouldn’t listen. I can do no more than to warn you again.

Thus demonstrating that you are nowhere near as tolerant or liberal as you claim to be. This is fun, you are doing all the work.

Satire, yes. Nonsense that is labelled ‘satirical’ because it is challenged and because it didn’t really mean anything in the first place isn’t really satire.

13

Peter Kropotkin: I wrote a bit to somewhere about ID.

Sd: Yes, that its not scientifically based. Maybe in conceptualization, it was not. What it has taken on is being philosophically based. It argues that by philosophy and some science that the world as it is now, could not have been formed by evolution alone. And there is argument there, but its a sound theory as of now. There are some things that evolution does not explain well. So, it claims that an intelligence must be responsible. It does not say God (note the capital G), merely intelligence. ID, in and of itself, could be claiming that members of an alien race from Alpha Centaur could be responsible for Earth as we know it now. There are implications and connotations surely, but in and of itself, it is no longer religiously biased. it is simply another theory. And like I said, its teaching in school will not significantly impact the people that will hear it.

K: with ID, you can’t get more scientific because it is not scientific.
Evolution is scientific and one can discuss that scientifically,
ID is just religion hiding under some vague theory.
If you can’t see the religion hiding under the ID theory,
you are just not looking. Actually claiming it is alien races from
alpha centaur would be a step up for the ID theory.
If you allow this one, then you must allow every single
theory about how the universe/earth was formed because they
are all theories.
Do you want to go down that path?

K: Two democrats governors elected. No one was elected here, just propositions.

SD: Not one of my major points, but which is it?

K: just a point. I’m sorry I did not make it clear.
Two governors, one in new jersey and one in Virgina were
elected. the failed arnold proposition were here in California.

K: California is a very “blue” state. We oppose any thought of banning abortion. It is very clear from the polling, the opposition to this
proposition was not privacy driven, but abortion driven.
Some GOP is pro-abortion especially here. I have friends, stock
brokers type, who are are very conservative in regards to
financial matters and are socially liberal. That is very,
very common here within the GOP. That is why arnie is, was,
so popular, fiscally conservative and socially liberal, that
is practically the mantra of the republican party out here.
[/quote]

SD: If T4M is any indication, I would disagree. Socially liberal is not a phrase I would use to describe him.

K: t4m does not live in California, not that I know of.
California conservatives tend to, but of course not always,
tend to be socially liberal, at least compared to other conservatives.

SD: However, polling is a very weak science. Abortion’s status as it may be in Cali, I would have to argue based on what the prop does that some people must have voted against it due to privacy issues. We had something similar here, and it lost. Polling indicated that abortion was a hot topic, but several articles from independent sources found that privacy was more the issue than abortion. Protecting your right to keep information that pertains to you secret was the more driving issue. This is already intrinsically linked to the abortion issue as is, it being somewhat of a privacy issue to begin with.

K: The right wing does not agree with you. It is about killing babies
to them and privacy rights, well the bush white house wants
you to know, you have no privacy. Thank you for your time.

K: Did some research on the net and found a map and story
called “sweeping out the plains” the map had all the counties that
had out migrated more then 10% since 1980, and the middle of
the country had an awful lot of red counties that had
more then 10% loss. Can’t say why people are fleeing,
I haven’t lived out there in over 30 years, I was born in Minnesota.

SD: People are leaving the rural areas of the plains states. They specifically exclude any metro areas from their research. So, are people leaving rural Kansas for Wichita? We don’t know. The net migration out of the state is unknown. Less small farms and less workers on said farms. Yes, rural areas of grain producing states are going to be hit. Rural areas in general are going to be worse off because getting people to come to you with no advertising and potentially very little to offer is difficult. It’s just not financially sound. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand though.

K: just trying to be through. covering all my bases.
What other cliche I can use?

K: Right now I am on workmen’s comp due to a back injury.
I take several pain pills to sleep and it takes a while to wake up.
As far as an arguments goes, I have thrown out several topics,
pick one and lets go, or you might want to toss one or two out,
and we can have at it. Its your call.
[/quote]

SD: Ahh…painkillers. Ok, let’s try that democrats marching to their own drummer bit. Since when? The democrats have had a pretty solid party line and followed it since the early 80’s. The two parties have changed very little over the last 20 years or so. They’ve taken on new problems in pretty much the way that you’d expect. What interests me is that a lot of democrats are more antirepublican right now than anything. They seem to be fighting the issue while offering no alternatives. And the alternatives I have heard are more socialistic than democratic. So my topic is “Where are all the other drummers?”

K: off drumming?

UMMM, democrats have always been a much more diverse party.
The republicans have always had fewer and more narrow focus
issues to work with. Get 10 republicans in a room and you will
have maybe 3 or 4 issues/viewpoints.
Get 10 democrats in a room and you will
15 or 20 different issues/viewpoints.

The entire Republican platform could fit on a bumper sticker.

“War and Torture good,
Abortion and taxes bad”.

Democrats couldn’t even agree on using a bumper sticker
because using cars create a gashouse effect and that is bad for
the enviroment.

Different drummers.

Kropotkin

14

Hello F(r)iends,

If you are unaware, many companies are required by contract, to take union dues from the employees check (whether or not the employee wants to be a part of that union—this too has to go) now an employee is further harmed by not having an ability to contribute to a political party of their choice. This is money removed against their will… The shareholders throw their money to the company of their choosing–it is done willingly.

California is an “at will” state. At any time employees can be terminated for no cause, no reason. Tenure is simply bad practice. No job should be so safe–it causes stagnation.

And people wonder why companies leave California or incorporate anywhere but California.

-Thirst

15

Dear Peter (if that is your real name),

K: Nope.

someoneisatthedoorf:“In other words
I don’t have a defence of this argument because I’m only repeating the Democrat propaganda with which I’ve been indoctrinated”
Tell you what, PK, what don’t you explain what is so wrong with Intelligent Design Theory? Why shouldn’t children be given the choice of different theories about our origins when scientifically we’ve got very little idea whatsoever? Are you against children being taught diverse ideas? Should they just be taught stuff that coincides with your views?
That’s what you seem to be saying with all your ‘boycott Kansas’ nonsense. If only you could see how truly illiberal and statist you were being, you’d understand so much more. As it is you are no better informed than that idiot who was running around quoting Rage Against the Machine lyrics right left and centre…

K: Several bits here. Let me go in some order.
First of all, I am a democrat because I understand and
approve of the idea’s and ideal’s of the democratic party.
There is a very old joke about democrats floating about,
It goes like this " I don’t belong to any organize party,
… I’m a democrat" We tend to march to our own drummer.

S: Precisely my point about you not realising just how middle of the road and ordinary and popular (and un-individual) your political opinions are…

K: Alas, you have found me out. Yes, I share my political opinions
with millions of others. I shall immediately resign from ILP, because
every single opinion one has, must be unique and individualist.

K:Ah, ID. Love to talk about ID. First of all, it is not a science.

S: Nor is Relativity, but both are scientific.

K: you mean the theory of relativity is not science.
Wow, won’t Einstein be surprised. Being a scientist and all.
And how exactly is ID, science.

K: It was started in 1992, and the key and only point it offers
is religious, there is a god who started the whole thing.

S: Your inability to distinguish ID from creationism is laughable given that you clearly consider yourself qualified to talk on the subject…

K: What was my post about? Kansas and how it adapted
the Intelligent design religion. So I have kept to that idea.
Next point is who support ID and creationism, uh the same people.
the same"scientist" give the same talking points for both.
The same scientists, behe and dembisk,
and phillip johnson speak for ID and creationism.
If you can spot the difference you are a better man then I,
gunga din.

K:That’s it, that ID. There is nothing else to it.

S: How silly of you…

K: so show me how wrong I am, by showing us both
the ID theory and the creationism theory.

K: No science, no theories, no evidence, no scientific papers
written supporting it, no attempt at anything remotely scientific
about those who support ID except that god started it all.

S: Have you ever read Aristotle? He advocates an idea very, very similar to intelligent design, thus proving that it predates 1992 (in some form or other).

K: I prefer Aristotle for ethics rather then science,
but hay, using Aristotle for science is still closer
to real science the ID or creationism.

S: And of course there’s the watchmaker argument, which predates 1992.

K: ummm, tom when was the book by uh, dawkins, the book
“the blind watchmaker” written?
In 1986, if you wish to quibble about a few years, go ahead,
because your idea will need all the help it can get.

K: “If it was a scientific theory instead of religion disguised as theory,
I would support it”

S: “You mean how you support Evolutionism, which is religion disguised as science?”

K: if you want to go here, we can, but its like a chess game, your move
and my move and your move and my move can all be predicted
because we have danced this dance before. You have studied at
the feet of Raphael, and still haven’t learned anything new.

S: Listen, the question and answer has been there for thousands of years. Only a couple of days ago I warned you against over-egging the present but you wouldn’t listen. I can do no more than to warn you again.

K: So now we have questions and answers from thousands of years
ago and apparently more egging. Is this that toast thing I don’t get or
I don’t know. Whenever you mention eggs, I get really confused.

K:If you want to talk about religion in schools,
I am actually ok with it, as long as you give equal time
to Buddhism and Hinduism, and Jainism and the native American
religions and all the other religions and say more then once,
they all have equal value as christianity. They all claim to have
the truth. Give equal time to all the other religions that claim
to have a theory about how the universe started, will get my vote.
But equal time for all or no time for any such religious nonsense.

S: Thus demonstrating that you are nowhere near as tolerant or liberal as you claim to be. This is fun, you are doing all the work.

K: Maybe try reading things before you respond.
What did I say? I will try again. I quite plainly say,
reread, I am OK with religion in schools as long as you give
equal time to every single religion, which means buddhist,
and jainism, and native American, and Egyptian, and wiccan,
They all claim to have the truth,( and this should be said)
and they ALL should have their creationism theories
talked about in school, not just christianity.
Equal time for all or no time for all.

K: As far as my boycott of Kansas goes,
I thought you understood satire, my bad.

S: “Satire, yes. Nonsense that is labelled ‘satirical’ because it is challenged and because it didn’t really mean anything in the first place isn’t really satire”.

K: I guess you definitely define satire for all time.
well, people can rest easy now. On behalf of the human race,
I thank you. next up shall be something easy, like world peace.

Kropotkin

16

Okay. Creationism is not scientific. ID is scientific. Science is the basis for its argument. Scientifically evolution cannot explain everything about how the world has become what it has become. So, we have ID. Its true that it can be used to justify creationism, but that is not its only use. If everything were limited to one use, many things would not exist. What we are currently debating is what theories hold enough scientific and logical weight to stand being mentioned in a classroom. ID, although misused, can stand this test. If you feel that we must include that we are made of mud as a theory of the earth’s creation to include ID, so be it. I will go down that path.

Some of the right wing does. Its just that they view the idea of life over privacy or choice. I can respect that in some cases. The current panic in America is what drives the fear of privacy, not singlehandedly the Bush II administration. If 9/11 and subsequent actions had not been taken, would we have the Patriot Act? Most likely not. How would a different president reacted? Who knows, but we cannot say for sure that they would not have acted very similarly.

Although I appreciate the attempt at thorough, it led us on a side quest of possible misrepresentation. Because this same debate could have been taking place in say, Indiana, who does not suffer the same rural depletion as Kansas. The debate and this point are not related.

So, fewer and narrow focus is bad? How does that work? Isn’t being able to focus on certain points and work towards your goals on those points usually considered a good thing?

Clever. War and Torture good. Abortion and Taxes bad. Yes, I"m sure all Republicans think this way. There is no variation. They are all robots who have been programmed to think one way and never differentiate. I’m sure there are Republicans who were not behind the war. I can be positive that not all Republicans are pro-torture. That’s ridiculous. I’m sure there are pro-choice Republicans and some may want more taxes for specific things.

So you would have me believe that electing more Democrats, who according to you can’t decide on a single thing, should be put in seats of authority? Very convincing. So, pray tell, how do the Democrats have a party line?

“Abortions for all” - “Boo”
“Abortions for none” - “Boo”
“Abortions for some and little American flags for others” - “Yay!”

So appeasement is your answer? If you can’t decide, you just give in to peer pressure? What is this belief system you hold youself to? And how do you agree with the Democratic beliefs, if their beliefs are nothing specific?

SIATD: I leave response to your post to you. I’m sure you can pick at it as well, most likely, better than I.

17

ID doesn’t belong in a science classroom because it isn’t science. Plain and simple. Evolution can’t explain the origin of life because that isn’t its purpose. Evolutionary theory doesn’t address the origin of life; it addresses the origin of Species–hence Darwin’s book.

Kansas only gave itself a black eye (again) by voting to incorporate theology into their science classrooms.

The best thing to come out of yesterday’s elections was this result:

All Eight Intelligent Design Proponents On Dover, Pa. School Board Swept Out Of Office

All eight members up for re-election to the Pennsylvania school board that had been sued for introducing the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in biology class were swept out of office yesterday by a slate of challengers who campaigned against the intelligent design policy.

-nytimes

Hahahaha. Priceless. :slight_smile:

18

Dear Peter

I knew you were lying about something…

Not necessarily, but ‘marching to our own drummer’ is a oxymoron unless you are in the minority, which as one of the two main parties, the democrats are not…

I said it wasn’t ‘a science’, not that it wasn’t science. That you couldn’t care less whether you write ‘X is science’ or ‘X is a science’ demonstrates just how apathetic you really are about this discussion.

One requires a God or many God, the other simply requires a form of life vastly more intelligent than human…

I thought that this would have been obvious. Creationism requires a divine force, ID doesn’t.

I just have.

How about the unmoved mover? This sits somewhere between modern creationism and modern ID theory but is nonetheless a theoretical precursor which existed over 2 thousand years prior to when you say the theory was created.

Oh dear, PK, oh dear oh dear. The idea is as old as Paley, if not Cicero…

Don’t be daft. I thought evolution was bunk long before I met Raphael. And I haven’t once resorted to an argument that I didn’t know prior to making his acquaintance. This is the sign of you clutching at straws, methinks…

Not only are you a dunce, you aren’t funny.

I’ll make it really simple for you - you have claimed that Intelligent Design is a contemporary theory with no theoretical or scientific precedent. This is simply incorrect and is another example of you trying to overdress the present to compensate for your ignorance of the past. Ironically this sort of nostalgia for the present is precisely the MO of those embroiled in capitalist culture…

‘such religious nonsense’ - you intolerant, egotistical, pig-ignorant wretch…

I have a lot of sympathy for you, believe it or not.

World Peace - give me a gun, problem solved. :wink:

Being both British and a much more talented comedian than you I’ll happily take the position of authority on issues of satire…

To be honest taking apart the arguments of someone who think ID theory was invented in the 20th century (even the term existed before then, let alone the theoretical backdrop) isn’t much of a challenge. I’m happy for someone to present an argument as to why evolution is more scientifically valid than Intelligent Design, indeed I’d be very interested to hear it. But if the words ‘Christian’ or ‘rightwing’ appear anywhere in the argument it will be automatically invalidated. By my authority!

19

Deaf FtheNaysayers

Thus speaketh the sociologist…

The plain and simple truth is rarely plain and never simple

Without species, what is life?

So what is the origin of life? Do you perhaps have a better answer than the Intelligent Desgin theorists? I’d love to hear it…

Yeah, because it’s not like science is faith based anyway. Oh no… It’s not like it has long-standing issues which have never been resolved which threaten to unravel it’s claim to plain and simple truth. Of course not, that would be silly…

Good old campaigners, rarely have good reasons, rarely even capable of explaining their poor reasons. Actions speak louder than words - yeah, when you are effectively illiterate…

20

I certainly do. It also has more evidence to back up its claims than ID does, which isn’t saying much…

http://www.venganza.org/index.htm