YHWH’s promise of land

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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The first six books of the Hebrew Bible known to Jews as the Torah plus Joshua tell the long story that asserts YHWH’s initial promise of land to Abraham comes to fulfillment. YHWH is shown to be faithful and Israel is shown to be fully entitled to the land. Joshua chapter 10 verse 40 says”

“ So Joshua defeated the whole land the hill country and the Nebgeb and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no one remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord God of Israel commanded.”

Thus, raw military violence, and the will of YHWH are intimately linked. The will of YHWH is seen to justify and authorize and legitimate acts of extermination. The rhetoric mandates nothing less than genocide. The Torah and the book of Joshua functioned and continues to function as theologically grounded land entitlement. This claim makes possible the complete write off of other indigenous populations in the land as though they were not there at all or because they have no right to be there. By extrapolation, the same texts of land legitimacy continue to function as justification for the current policy of the state of Israel towards the Palestinian population.

Furthermore, the same ideology has legitimated European Americans in discovering and occupying North America at the unbearable expense of native Americans. And every part of the world, European colony policy toward indigenous populations received warrant from this text that if not toxic and intent, has in any case function in toxic ways in recent history. Biblical narratives, which deal with the promise and gift of land have contributed to war crimes and crimes against humanity and virtually every colonized region by providing allegedly divine legitimation for western colonizers to implant outposts of progress in the “heart of darkness”.

Israel’s claim continues despite the lack of historical evidence. And the Nation of Israel continues to practice genocidal military practices against the Palestinian people in Gaza.

What are we to make of these claims theologically? How can we worship a god who commands genocide? And what can we do about belief that genocide is justified because it is warranted by god in a text held infallible by millions of people?Finally, what are the implication of YHWH’s claims for the would be colonizers and colonized of the world?

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He was bringing justice to the people who occupied the territory before Israel. He also told Israel the land was his, not theirs.

That’s why you have the exiles and what not. Because they forgot.

None of this is ours.

Ours is the kingdom of heaven, if… Well… different thread?

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Justice to the babies and the unborn who were massacred?

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…during religious rituals and what not.

There are periods of history where people stop reproducing because the conditions are so deplorable. They save their babies from even existing.

There are other periods of history where they don’t even care what their babies are going through.

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I just looked-up this:

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…which led me to this:

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Is not skewing archeological finds and data, immoral… as well as downright deceitful and totally unethical?

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While the State of Israel was established on 15 May 1948 and admitted to the United Nations, a Palestinian State was not established . The remaining territories of pre-1948 Palestine, the West Bank - including East Jerusalem- and Gaza Strip, were administered from 1948 till 1967 by Jordan and Egypt, respectively.
https://unctad.org/topic/palestinian-people/The-question-of-Palestine

…so what happened after 1967, with regard to the administration of the Palestinian Territories. :face_with_diagonal_mouth:

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Your sidetracking of the issue that Felix brought up is deplorable. But then again, we have grown used to you doing that. You are probably suffering from an empathy deprivation and I feel sorry for you.

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Indeed, and just because John O’Sullivan, a journalist and editor, is credited with coining the phrase “Manifest Destiny” in 1845, does not mean that Trump has a god given right to invade Canada.
Some Canadains , remembering 1812, think he should give it a try. They are arguing over whether to paint the Whitehouse Black or go for a RAINBOW design.
I think Rainbow would be more fun.

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Indeed, under a Supreme Court empowered Trump, imperial USA enters a new era as a wild card. He has put Canada and Mexico on notice with his tariff threat. Play ball or suffer the consequences seems to be his not so subtle message.

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Judaism is very religion intolerant.
Also intolerant of gays.

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I don’t see it that way, Dan. I see Jewish attitudes toward those of different persuasions as running the gamut much as those of Christians do. Orthodox Jews are generally less tolerant than other Jews much as Christian fundamentalists are less tolerant than other Christians.

Jewish philosopher, Abraham Heschel said “ The scandal of our age is that in a world in which even political states, maintain diplomatic relations and strive for coexistence only religions are not on speaking terms” and “ holiness is not the monopoly of any particular religion or tradition”. He argued that the wheel of God is not to be found in uniformity, but in diversity because God is an all inclusive reality.

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Imagine, if you will, a warm comfortable computer suite. Young men and women in green uniforms laugh over coffee and bagles with cream cheese.
It’s their turn on duty and there is shift change, where they take their cosy seats in front of the monitors, donning head phones and mics.
On screen we see a bleak devasted landscape. crosshairs dart left and right looking for movement, with the recticle resting on moving shapes in the scene. It’s almost like a computer game; almost indistinguishable from Tom Clancy’s Ghost Recon: or call of Duty Modern Warfare. The operators know these games well.
The recticle focusses in on a small child playing in the dirt with a broken toy. The child is an orphan and though tired, hungry thirsty and devasted by its plight takes a few moments of limited joy and distraction to move the toy through the rubble.
The computer operator presses a button and a high speed bullet enters the skull of the child at the back of the head…

Now multiply that 1000 times.

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I am so relieved to hear that you are now pro-life.

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SAMUEL 15 And Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the LORD. 2Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction [49] all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” 4So Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand men on foot, and ten thousand men of Judah. 5And Saul came to the city of Amalek and lay in wait in the valley. 6Then Saul said to the Kenites, “Go, depart; go down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them. For you showed kindness to all the people of Israel when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7And Saul defeated the Amalekites from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive and devoted to destruction all the people with the edge of the sword. 9But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep and of the oxen and of the fattened calves [50] and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them. All that was despised and worthless they 10The word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11“I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the LORD all night. 12And Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning. And it was told Samuel, “Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself and turned and passed on and went down to Gilgal.” 13And Samuel came to Saul, and Saul said to him, “Blessed be you to the LORD. I have performed the commandment of the LORD.” 14And Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears and the lowing of the oxen that hear?” 15Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites, for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen to sacrifice to the LORD your God, and the rest we have devoted to destruction.” 16Then Samuel said to Saul, “Stop! I will tell you what the LORD said to me this night.” And he said to him, “Speak.” 17And Samuel said, “Though you are little in your own eyes, are you not the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. 18And the LORD sent you on a mission and said, ‘Go, devote to destruction the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19Why then did you not obey the voice of the LORD? Why did you pounce on the spoil and do what was evil in the sight of the LORD?” 20And Saul said to Samuel, “I have obeyed the voice of the LORD. I have gone on the mission on which the LORD sent me. I have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and I have devoted the Amalekites to destruction. 21But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the best of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the LORD your God in Gilgal.” 22And Samuel said, “Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams. 23For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.” 24Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. 25Now therefore, please pardon my sin and return with me that I may worship the LORD.” 26And Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you. For you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.” 27As Samuel turned to go away, Saul seized the skirt of his robe, and it tore. 28And Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.” 30Then he said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, that I may bow before the LORD your God.” 31So Samuel turned back after Saul, and Saul bowed before the LORD. 32Then Samuel said, “Bring here to me Agag the king of the Amalekites.” And Agag came to him cheerfully. [51] Agag said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” 33And Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 34Then Samuel went to Ramah, and Saul went up to his house in Gibeah of Saul. 35And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Above is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages in terms of genocide. Does it have anything to do with Israel’s policy toward Gaza? Does Netanyahu or any of the orthodox Jews in power in Israel interpret this passage literally as informing their policy toward their enemies? Is there any ethical way to interpret it or should it be rejected outright?

Early Christians like Marcion and some who were labeled as gnostics rejected the God of the Hebrew Bible because of this and other passages. The orthodox catholic church rejected them as heretics because of it.Were the so called Gnostics perhaps on the right track ethically speaking? How do non-orthodox Jews view this and other similarly genocidal Biblical passages? How can Bible believers of any stripe believe it is a holy book when it includes this?

Note it is Samuel the priest carries out God’s command and hacks the foreign king to pieces. Perhaps he deserved it, but what of the children and the cattle? How is this anything but savagery of the worst kind in the name of God?

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Imagine being one of those guys in the bible (like above) who said something banal in some ordinary chat somewhere… and thousands of years later, people are quoting you on philosophy boards and ready to kill each other over what you really meant.

Lol Monty Python could do it. A scene like in the LOB when B is standing in the window shouting at the people to stop following him and he’s not the messiah, etc.

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Imagine if ideologically driven genocide and ethnic cleansing were stopped by satire like “The Life of Brian” or songs like “Imagine”.

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It’s just fruitloops to actually claim a god gave anyone express permission to have a piece of land.

But I’m not offended by this, only disappointed. I become offended only when a jew (or anyone else) expects me to observe his claimed right to some land because in doing so, he’s calling me an idiot. How? Because he’s mistaking me for someone who believes in his nonsense (and is therefore dumb like him), or, someone foolish enough to let him trick me (if he doesn’t believe the nonsense himself and only pretends to).

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So if you ever come into ownership of your mom’s house, I can just walk in there no problem and start cleaning up all the cat shit and kick your ass out?

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The command was not to take any spoils of war. Your objection is to war without taking spoils?

War in and of itself isn’t going to be pretty. Are you OK with some wars and not others? Are you opposed to all war? Should no message ever be sent in the way the war is waged?

Have you noticed that the cease-fire is holding? To me this is shocking. They were talking about utterly destroying Hamas…devoting them to destruction, if you will. Will there be no accountability for what Hamas did October 7, 2023?

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4 posts were split to a new topic: Mom’s House

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As I understand it, that is the orthodox Zionist interpretation of the claims of the Hebrew Bible. Rabbinical Judaism after 135 A.D. in the diaspora tended to allegorize those claims and the genocidal commandments that accompanied them as did the first Christian theologian, Paul, also known as Saul of Tarsus. In the late 19th century, there was a revival of Zionism. Among Jews has started out as a secular movement but has been overtaken by the Right wing party. Among Christians, it was motivated by fundamentalist interpretations of first or second century prophecies of a second coming of Christ.

I recently read a book dedicated to non-violence entitled “Not in God’s Name” (2015) by Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks where he cites numerous Hebrew Bible stories. I was disappointed to find that he doesn’t address the issue of God’s genocidal commandments to the Israelites.

I was appalled by Biden’s unconditional support of Israel while it was conducting de facto genocidal war in Gaza. I don’t expect Trump to do any better.

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