Quality/Quantity (Carleas), or: Itchy takes down Ec & Bri Bri single-handedly

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

against:

You & Brian share the same opinion:

You both think women “create” this environment.

In a situation where women just recently secured the ability to work outside the home, vote, so forth — and not even globally.

Fascinating. You both think you are victims.

But your solution is … not to go back to being assholes … but instead … to what? Advise women to be assholes that sleep around unselectively, right? To select everyone, basically. (Even though you still rate them between 0 & 10 & whatnot, but set that aside for now.)

How does that solve the scarcity of resources & wars fought over them? Seems to be an entirely separate problem.

Just an observation.

So the real problem seems to be you’re not getting laid, and that’s the limit of your interest in females… ? And you think you should have what you consider quality females without being what you think they consider quality males?

Back to your rating system… on what qualities do you rate them between 0 & 10? Do you think those qualities are good, beautiful, and true qualities?

Do you think a quality woman could exist who does not “create” (intend) an environment of rivalry? Would you really be willing to share her with the men she made feel highly valued as “ends” and not as means to money, dick, or protection (say, from home/car repair)?

Would you make her/them feel valued as ends and not as means to conspicuous consumption, pussy, and progeny?

What environment do you create?

Show us the way out of this mess. Guarantee it involves self=other. Or nukes.

1 Like
2

It occurs to me that there’s a sense in which @promethean75’s framing fails the Bechdel test – it describes women’s lives as fundamentally about men. The framing feels more like projection than analysis. Men do tend to think of (obsess about) themselves and other men in terms of how women perceive them (or rather how they think women perceive them).

I say that as a description of my ‘lived experience’ as a man, so I only have one side of the story, but there’s a pat evopsych story for why we might expect the male of the species to think about women more than women think about men. (I am a bit ashamed of the following; my only excuse is that I am a man.)

Men can employ an evolutionary strategy that women can’t, namely that of ‘sewing ones oats’. To be successful in that strategy (or at least keep it available), men need to be immediately appealing to women who don’t know them, and need to invest less in the long-term. Similar strategies can be seen in males in other species (cf. peacocking).

Women don’t have that strategy available, because reproduction requires much more investment from them: they are physically vulnerable during pregnancy and for the period following birth during which babies are helpless. As a result, successful reproduction for women requires not only finding a suitable mate, but also cultivating relationships with others who will support them as they care for the child.

Obviously men can and do adopt this strategy as well; on the whole, humans are more K than r. But the existence of the r-selection strategy means that over time, men will tend to invest more time and energy in improving how women see them. And in modern humans, that means perseverating on whether they are a virgin or a chad.

At the same time, they will invest less in abilities that improve their ability to form alliances, like modelling the internal life of others. So they just assume women see men the way men see women, modulo gender roles.

But probably women see things somewhat differently. To the extent evolutionary strategy influences cognition, we should expect a tendency to invest less in how men perceive them, and more in non-sexual social relationships, relative to men.

Put another way: we should expect women’s lives to be less about men than men’s lives are about women.

3

There’s a difference between thinking more (quantity) and being thoughtful (quality).

But what I really wanted to say when I quoted that little piece was, I read a kids shirt that said a certain kind of salamander doesn’t need hind legs because it mostly swims.

I was like… OR maybe it mostly swims because it doesn’t have hind legs?

4

From a naively realistic little boy, Al the above true except when in-verse the neuron channels have to be scraped off of, the barnacles which prevent corrosion, that double up the transcending bars to clarity built up by the banks of the river flow

5

Why shouldn’t we expect it to be the same (in quality, not necessarily quantity), considering we’re more than just our genes, and can do self=other?

memetic r/K, if you will (I know I sure will)

6

I had a choice decades ago.

Become the richest man on earth.

Which is a way of acting out to get sex.

Or talk about this problem knowing I’ll never get sex at all.

I chose to teach.

Our lives are very short here.

The most important thing is to watch your soul.

7

I love the way you swim against the stream :slight_smile:

8

We are more than our genes, but we are also our genes. But you’re right, the evopsych story is a just-so story, it’s a hypothesis at best.

And you’re right that we should expect empathy to counteract it though. Even in the evopsych story we should expect empathy to limit cognitive dimorphism. Empathy is useful for everyone, and being able to empathize with someone requires being able to accurately simulate them.

There are also selective pressures toward more efficient genomes, and particularly in complex traits like cognition they would tend to limit how much differences in reproductive strategy will lead to innate differences in how people think.

Evopsych stories are always over-simplified, they can’t really be said to be true of individuals but of distributions of individuals. And even to the extent they’re true, they’re very small differences that it takes averaging across huge numbers to even detect.

But for a certain sort of individual, they can be empathy-raising. Here, it can plant the seed for the thought, “Maybe the way this person is behaving doesn’t mean what it would mean for me to behave that way.”

9

How so?

10

For a certain sort of individual (the sort who is already looking at these interactions through the lens of evopsych and genes and game theory, even if not in those terms) pointing out that different strategies reward different ways of seeing and thinking about the world can nudge them towards a more empathetic reaction to other people’s behavior. It’s not enough to ask, “What is this person trying to get out of this interaction?”, you also need to ask something like, “What situations is this person optimized for?” or, “What about this situation is most salient to this person?”

Specifically, for incel-ish men, it would be worth it to consider that the way they think about wooing women is probably not the way women think about being wooed. And more importantly, that the proportion of their thoughts that are about wooing women is not related to the proportion of women’s actions that are about being wooed.

It plants a seed to divide the thoughts, “I feel this way because…” from, “She did this because…”

11

If a person is incapable of properly recognizing personhood (elevating the person as the end above all other ends of a sexual relationship), then it is likely they will not have sexual relationships with people who prioritize that capability.

So Ec’s solutions to the problems miss the mark. The way Bri Bri talks to his mom… despicable.

Every girl’s mom teaches her daughter to pay attention to how a guy treats his mom.

If Ec talks to his mom about wanting philosophic zombie oblivion forever (I mean… seriously???) … that’s probably traumatic for her.

I’m not sure they actually want to get laid (I mean… enjoy a deep, meaningful sexual
connection with a woman), because neither of them are THAT stupid to treat their moms like that (or admit to it) in front of God & everybody… & still expect sexual attention from women.

Unless, of course, I’m wrong.

I had this one prof who played music in a totally different room than his wife… at the same time… pretty sure that had to be a joke. Like how old TV shows showed married folks sleeping separately. But at the time I took it seriously, & it seemed to me he missed some pretty heavy hints she was dropping.

Men are so dumb. Even smart ones.

12

Ichthus.

You called me dumb. Because I’m male.

That’s fair.

Thing is all of you are dumb.

Thing is when anyone has pleasure when someone hurts is unconscionable.

You can sit on your high horse all you want.

I’m doing the actual work.

13

I’m going to need that on video, preceded by an apology to your mom.

…and If all of ILP don’t get an apology to your moms from both you and Bri Bri by your birthday…

I propose a holiday rap battle busting on both of you and saying nice things about your moms… from the best of the rap battle warriors of the past.

OR both.

Make it so.

14

Ec, in your apology to your mom, I want you to thank her for putting up with all the shit she has to put up with from you. I want you to tell her she is your reason for living and that you wanna live forever because of her.

Copy‽

Of course you do,

16

This is the first time I’ve ever told this to a person.

I came back (resurrected) to save my mom.

When I was poisoned with cyanide.

I came back with all the force of existence.

I didn’t want my moms feelings to be hurt.

Judge that Ichthus

17

I think you just made that up. You have made stuff up before.

You should channel that into making up real stuff.

Like the aforementioned apology.

As a warning, you should probably listen to these songs on repeat 5,000 times for research purposes before you dare try to parallel with me in funny lies again:

Take your own advice, Ec. Guard your heart and soul,

19

No. I really was poisoned to death by the cia.

They poisoned my coffee at coffee time.

Death came to me and said, “it will all be over soon” as I was walking out for a cigarette.

When I went back in…

I sat with Fred.

I pushed my wallet to him excepting defeat.

He pushed it back to me. That meant it wasn’t my time yet.

3 hours later I walked outside…

I was about to die…

And this thunderous soul came into me and spoke only one word. “NO!!”

As suicidal as I was… all I could think about was my mom at that moment.

I remember it like it was yesterday.

You don’t have to believe me.

That’s the way it went down.

Search my memories.

20

Do I look like a Vulcan?

…because I am.

21

Do I look like I’m not speaking to you when I am.

Another thing about that day.

I misquoted death. He said it will all be over in a few hours.

For 3 hours…. I was shivering before I left.

This is the gods honest truth.

There are many beings in existence who can search my memories. If you can’t do a mind meld now, you can do it after you die.

You can either do memory overlap or you can do it instantaneously.

Or not at all.

Your choice.

I was chosen

Some people think I’m a prophet, chosen by god. Death itself warned to call myself a prophet.

I’m a little old for that now.

22

And then wiccan Jesus called you back… & you resurrected yourself to save your mom, right?

Vulcan death grip